Persistence in Podcasting and Avoiding ​‘Pod Fade’ | Jason Greenwood

Matt Edmundson [0:00 - 0:00]: Foreign.

Sadaf Beynon [0:05 - 0:12]: Welcome back to Podjunction Podcast, a show that helps podcasters grow their business. I'm Sadaf Beynon and I'm with Matt Edmundson.

Matt Edmundson [0:12 - 0:14]: Very good. Finally.

Sadaf Beynon [0:14 - 0:28]: Finally. Yes, we've got there. And we're back today with Jason Greenwood as well. And today he's talking about the common pitfalls of pod fade. I can get my words out.

Matt Edmundson [0:29 - 0:54]: Brilliant. What you don't know, dear listener, is. And also dear viewer, of course. But what you don't know is, depending on how Josh has edited this video, it may be that you just heard one introduction to the show where Sadaf went straight into it. It may be that you heard the four or five failed attempts, and Josh has sort of strung them together. And so that's the reason why I'm laughing is we're just struggling right now.

Sadaf Beynon [0:54 - 0:54]: We are.

Matt Edmundson [0:54 - 1:02]: To get the words out. Has it been a long day? I don't understand how it's only caught 12. It's like it's not even afternoon yet. But has it been a long day?

Sadaf Beynon [1:03 - 1:04]: Has it been a talking today?

Matt Edmundson [1:05 - 1:05]: Okay.

Sadaf Beynon [1:06 - 1:20]: Okay. So anyway, we are talking again with Jason. He's talking about the common pitfalls of pod fade and the necessity of being persistent and consistent in all of pot.

Matt Edmundson [1:20 - 1:20]: Fade.

Sadaf Beynon [1:20 - 1:23]: Pod fade. Is it my accent, Matt?

Matt Edmundson [1:23 - 1:25]: Yeah, maybe. So pod fade.

Sadaf Beynon [1:25 - 1:26]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [1:26 - 1:27]: What do you mean by pod fade?

Sadaf Beynon [1:27 - 1:31]: Where you kind of get tired of podcasting, you kind of fade out.

Matt Edmundson [1:31 - 1:34]: Okay. So you just disappear into the.

Sadaf Beynon [1:34 - 1:35]: Into.

Matt Edmundson [1:35 - 1:39]: 98% of everybody. Everybody does this. 90, 98% of people do this.

Sadaf Beynon [1:40 - 1:40]: Something like that.

Matt Edmundson [1:40 - 1:45]: But fade just disappear, never to be seen again. Yeah, I'm never doing that podcasting thing.

Sadaf Beynon [1:46 - 1:46]: Yes.

Matt Edmundson [1:47 - 1:51]: Yeah. Okay, so that's what we're talking about. Brilliant. Well, should we get into the clip?

Sadaf Beynon [1:51 - 1:52]: Let's do it.

Matt Edmundson [1:52 - 1:53]: All right, here's Jason.

Sadaf Beynon [1:53 - 1:59]: What advice would you give to someone who's starting a podcast to grow their business?

Jason Greenwood [2:00 - 5:28]: Be prepared. For a long, long, long, long period of not much traction, be prepared. This is a very, very easy industry to get into, and it is a very difficult industry to succeed in. Meaning that. And this is why pod fade is a thing. This is why most podcasts never get past episode 20, because most people, if they get to episode 20 and they don't see much traction and they're only getting two listens an episode, by episode 20, they give up. And they say, well, this is. This is a waste of time. Why would I put all this effort and energy into a podcast that's not going to go anywhere? Right. You have to trust the process. Like Gary Vee told me 10 years ago and he was pounding in my ear every single day, every single episode of his that I watched or listened to, he was just pounding into my ear. Trust the process. Good things will come. You may not know what those good things are when you start, but trust me, good things will come. But, you know, grit, persistency, consistency, these are all traits that in our short attention span world today, people don't like. They want to. They want to go viral from the first episode, they want to go viral from the second episode, the fifth episode. They want to have a million followers tomorrow. They don't want to do eight hours a week of content production for years before they find success. And this is more often than not, unless you just get lucky. Unless you just happen to have a guest that has a million followers and they put it a. Post it out to their million followers and you automatically, you know, draught off of their success. Or, you know, you, you may hit a home run on your first episode, but it's unlikely. And you may be very good from a production quality and from an interview quality or from a writing and, and, you know, copywriting perspective. You may be amazing from day one, but most likely you won't be. And that's okay, because the reality is your audience will grow alongside your skills and your capability. So people tell me, aren't you afraid? You know, weren't you afraid when you first started putting content out to LinkedIn every day? When you're afraid that people would make fun of it or they would, they would challenge you in the comments or they wouldn't agree with you or whatever it might be. And I'm like, no, I had like 500 followers. Why would I care? Like, nobody's gonna see it. So I practised and I practised and I practised and I practised when I had no audience. And then as I got better, as I became more consistent, as the quality of my content got better, so did my audience size grow. And so I think that people worry too much. You need more at bats, you need to practise more. It's like going to the gym. You are not going to be fit the first time you go to the gym, but the hundredth day in a row that you go to the gym, you're probably going to see some gains in the mirror and you are certainly going to feel better, your biomarkers are going to be healthier. When you go to the doctor and you get your blood pressure taken, it's probably going to be better, but I tell you, it doesn't happen after the first day at the gym, your first post, your first episode, your first whatever. Just assume that you are going to suck because you will, right? It's like anything in life, we suck at anything. If we take on a new sport, we are going to suck and we have no expect. It's so weird. It is so weird. People have this expectation that their content is going to crush from day one. And I'm like, what do you do for a living?

Sadaf Beynon [5:28 - 5:29]: You play sports?

Jason Greenwood [5:29 - 7:10]: Do you have hobbies? Were you amazing from the very first day? You know, did you go to university? Like I personally didn't go to university, but I know lots of people do. Were you amazing at that thing before you went to university? Probably not. Why do we have this expectation? And it's the same with E commerce. People think they can set up a shopify store and be successful overnight. Why do people think that with content it's different than any other thing in their life. They will need to practise, they will need to refine, they will need to try things, taste things, try different formats, try different styles, try different tools, try different channels, try, you know, image posts, long form text posts, short form text posts, videos, carousels. They will need to try and taste lots of things before they figure out what even they like to produce. Because, because some people like to do an audio only podcast because they don't want to have to have this video interaction. And they go, well look, I can sit in my PJs and there's no camera and nobody cares because I'm doing audio only. And they're more comfortable with audio only, right? And in the beginning my podcast was audio only, right? But I realised a couple of years ago, I realised the whole world is moving to video and I was like, if I'm going to create shorts for short video platforms, I need the raw video to start from. So I converted from an audio only podcast to a video and audio podcast. So you know, you are going to need to experiment, you are going to need to play, but above all just do shit you enjoy. Because if you don't enjoy it, you will never stick at it anyway. So why start? Just do shit you love.

Sadaf Beynon [7:10 - 7:21]: Yeah, what you're saying is really valid. You'll get better at it. You just need to start. And I think that's some of that. Sometimes the hardest thing, starting because you want to be perfect at it from like straight out the gate.

Jason Greenwood [7:21 - 8:37]: But just know you won't just admit it to yourself, you will not be. It's going to take you probably if you do a podcast it's going to probably take you 50 episodes before you even remotely feel comfortable hosting a podcast. Like. Like I was a little bit lucky. I've got an abnormally outgoing personality. I was never nervous, I was never shy and I never didn't like my own voice. But that doesn't mean that somebody who isn't like me can't be absolutely awesome at putting out content that people love to consume, because my personality is very polarising. Some people love me and some people hate me. Some people can't stand me. And that's cool. That's totally cool. I want them to self select out of my content and they will self select out of yours too. If they can't stand you, let them bugger off. Let the people who are true fans be attracted to you like moth to a flame. That's the foundation of your community. And they're out there because there are people just like you out there. You represent certain strata of your community or your potential community and you will find people out there to resonate with. You will find an audience. If you stay at it long enough, you will find your tribe.

Sadaf Beynon [8:42 - 8:50]: If that got you curious and you want to catch the full episode, be sure to subscribe to the show. We've got plenty more great conversations coming up.

Matt Edmundson [8:54 - 8:56]: Welcome back.

Sadaf Beynon [8:56 - 8:57]: Welcome back.

Matt Edmundson [8:57 - 9:14]: Well, he was, he reminded me. He got really into that, didn't he? This is a passion of it. He reminded me of like an old school evangelist kind of, you know, the, the sort of veracity of which he was talking about this obviously deeply embedded into his thinking. Naturally. Entirely accurate, I thought.

Sadaf Beynon [9:14 - 9:29]: Yeah, Yeah. I felt like there was so much to, to pick out from, from what he was saying. So it was actually kind of hard to. Can't get my words out. I've been talking too much to narrow it down to that segment.

Matt Edmundson [9:30 - 9:37]: Yeah, it, it, it fascinating listening to him talk. So what? One piece of. You're gonna suck, I thought.

Sadaf Beynon [9:37 - 9:41]: This is a reality, isn't it?

Matt Edmundson [9:41 - 9:47]: It is. It's very much a reality, I think, and it's an obvious statement. I mean, we're on. Episode. What episode are we on now in this show?

Sadaf Beynon [9:47 - 9:50]: I don't know, is 65.

Matt Edmundson [9:50 - 12:59]: 65. So if you just joined in Podjunction, episode 65, welcome to you. Great to have you on board. And if you're, if you are genuinely new to podcasting, right. I mean, if you've been with us for 65 episodes, the chance of you being new, unless you've just consumed all of it in, you know, I mean, you know how to if you've done that in the last month. But if you are new to podcasting, I think this is probably one of those common things that I have heard from every single podcaster out there. And that is the first pick a number. 5, 10, 20 episodes that you do on your podcast are going to be rubbish, right? And you are going to suck. You know, you're not going to be great at it. Um, but you start to hone your craft. I think probably from about episode 30 onwards. Really, I don't know how you feel, because we're on episode 60 and this is your first podcast, right? I mean, you've done bits and bobs on a. Bits and bobs. You've done bits and bobs on a few of the podcasts. I'm laughing because Brett Curry. Yesterday, I was chatting to Brett Curry. Brett, if you're listening, good to have that conversation, man. And he was making fun of my accent by saying bits and bobs. But I think. I think it is so true. And you do have to persevere and get through the poor download numbers. The fact that you don't feel like what, you know, what you're doing the podcast kind of feels a bit odd. Yesterday, Zach, my middle child, youngest son, he wrote me a message because he's doing, like a YouTube channel, okay? He wants to start a YouTube channel. And he's struggled with IBS pretty much most of his life. And he's done nutrition at uni, right? And so he has done crazy amounts of experiments on himself to try and fix problems with his own gut system. And actually some of the things he's done really well, like he couldn't eat dairy, but now he can, and he figured out how to resolve that. And. And so he. He wants to sort of document both his journey and what he's figured out where health is concerned, both from a gut, microbiome, nutrition, and also exercise. I mean, as well into his exercise lunatic. But, you know, he. He wants to document all of that and I think actually be really interesting and really helpful. The stuff that he's found for people that struggle with IBS right now, what he's going to do and putting that content out there. Yesterday he text me. He's like, dad, I don't know where to start. Do I talk about this in the first episode? Do I talk about that in the first episode? And I'm like, dude, just start. Don't overthink it. It doesn't matter. No one's going to watch it, right? You get whatever you talk about now. You're going to say at least 20 times over the next sort of 50 episodes, it's fine, just start. Just go for it. And this belief that actually we've got to nail it from episode one and get it spot on is. Is one of your Monday myths, isn't it? Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [12:59 - 13:12]: It's also quite debilitating. Debilitating. Can't talk. It's debilitating as well, because I think you can end up putting something off for so long because you're trying to just have it perfect straight out the game.

Matt Edmundson [13:12 - 13:32]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's funny, we don't apply that thinking to. To other areas of our lives in many ways. Like, we know if we're going to start piano, it's going to sound rubbish, because we have that full expectation. Yet when it comes to something like podcasting or creating content, we want it. We feel like we have to nail it because it's so important.

Sadaf Beynon [13:32 - 13:35]: And I think it's also because it's on display.

Matt Edmundson [13:35 - 13:36]: Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [13:36 - 13:39]: Whereas the piano, you're in your. In the room. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [13:39 - 13:39]: And it's just you and.

Sadaf Beynon [13:40 - 13:42]: Yeah. And you know that it's going to take practise.

Matt Edmundson [13:42 - 13:43]: Yeah. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [13:43 - 13:46]: Whereas with this, it feels like you need to come out as an expert.

Matt Edmundson [13:46 - 14:46]: Yeah. Yeah. It's a really interesting one. So, again, if you're starting out new in podcasting, this whole belief, you've got to nail it from day one is. Is a real myth. And you have to be comfortable. I love this phrase, you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Yeah. Because I don't know. Did you find it? I say this, I appreciate there's different personalities. The first time I did a podcast, I don't know if I felt uncomfortable. I felt slightly awkward because I didn't know what I was. I don't know if I felt uncomfortable because I'm quite happy to put yourself out there. Well, I'm quite happy. Just. I like the sound of my own voice as. Yeah. Everyone probably tells. And I don't mind being the centre of attention. I don't mind being the one speaking from the platform. I. I don't mind the one putting content out on YouTube. I don't know, I just. I'm. I'm quite happy in that space. Maybe it's an ego thing, I don't know, but. But I did feel awkward. How did you feel when you first died?

Sadaf Beynon [14:50 - 15:23]: I can't remember exactly the first one that I. But I do remember the general feeling was that I had all these ideas in my head about how I think I should be coming across how I should be talking. And I had a mix of, like, all these different podcast hosts that I like to listen to, to try and somehow emulate what they do and how they do it, because I thought that would be successful. But what I was really doing was pushing myself to the side and trying to portray something that wasn't actually me.

Matt Edmundson [15:23 - 15:27]: So how long did it take to. To you. Not for you not to do that?

Sadaf Beynon [15:30 - 16:23]: I don't know. But what I do know, what I found helpful was with the. With the Podjunction recordings that I was doing. So with the people that you have seen on these episodes, I. After the. After I'd recorded with them, I asked them for their feedback, to ask how I did and what they thought. And I actually, I think I got really great feedback from them. And I know, like, on some level, people will just say, oh, yeah, you were great. Because, you know, you say that you kind of need someone to give you the actual truth. And they did. I thought. I thought not. Not all of them, but the ones that did, I really held on to their advice and feedback, and I think that that's what helped me because they, like, you know, for example, Jason was saying things like, you're not going to be perfect straight out the gate. It's okay. It's going to take time. Trust the process. It'll come. You're. You're. You're not. You're not going to be perfect at it from the start.

Matt Edmundson [16:23 - 16:32]: Yeah. So what were some of the bits of advice? I'm curious, what people or what guests have you had on that gave you the best bits of advice? And what was that advice?

Sadaf Beynon [16:33 - 16:52]: Well, Jason's. He was actually talking about it in the podcast, but then after, when I spoke with him as well, he was saying, you know, you've. You've got what it takes to. To do it. You just need the confidence to actually just trust your. Your gut and ask the questions and not shy away from. From asking.

Matt Edmundson [16:52 - 16:53]: Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [16:53 - 17:03]: And so that. That was helpful for me and Egan. He was my first one, and I'm trying to remember what he said.

Matt Edmundson [17:05 - 17:06]: Egan was your first interview?

Sadaf Beynon [17:06 - 17:06]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [17:07 - 17:07]: Okay.

Sadaf Beynon [17:07 - 17:12]: Yeah. Yeah, I can't remember.

Matt Edmundson [17:12 - 17:13]: It's really good advice. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [17:13 - 17:17]: Sorry, guys. But it was really good. I do remember it being really good. I wrote it down.

Matt Edmundson [17:17 - 17:20]: You also asked Josh for advice.

Sadaf Beynon [17:21 - 17:22]: You're Josh.

Matt Edmundson [17:22 - 17:24]: Yeah. He puts the show together.

Sadaf Beynon [17:24 - 17:25]: Yeah, I did.

Matt Edmundson [17:25 - 17:25]: Does all the editing as well.

Sadaf Beynon [17:26 - 17:39]: Yeah. Because I was doing an episode for a different podcast, and I found that as soon as I asked the question and then the Guest went on for 20 minutes to respond to it, and I felt like I was losing.

Matt Edmundson [17:39 - 17:41]: So this is just a general interview.

Sadaf Beynon [17:41 - 18:34]: This is just a general interview question. Yeah. And I didn't know how to pull them back. So when Josh went to edit it, my question was like, how does it come across? Does it sound okay? And he said to me that I did a good job at pulling it. Like, I was respectful of her, and I did a good job of pulling it back after the 20 minutes. But in those 20 minutes, it was hard to. To get a word in. And I don't think I was necessarily trying because I was like, this train is out of control. I don't know how to pull it back in. But. Yeah, but then I spoke with you about it too, and you were saying that this is your podcast. So if they're not. If they're not being able to adapt and they're being too salesy or being. Running away with. With ideas, you need to be able to pull them back. And even if that means stopping the conversation and saying, hey, can we do it this way instead? So not to be afraid of that.

Matt Edmundson [18:34 - 20:05]: Yeah, Just rerecord and say, I think it'd be better if. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I think getting advice is really helpful. And so, I mean, the. I don't know what the title of this podcast is, but we're talking about Pod Fade. So understand this idea that you're not going to be great at the start and actually committing to. When we work with clients, which, I mean, we don't talk about often on this show, but when we work with clients, we. We have two milestones, don't we? We. We get you episode five. Because I think by episode five, you'll understand podcasting enough to go, I think I get it. And I think, I know I'm not very good at it, but I think I get it enough to go, actually, yes, this is something that I want to go forward. So milestone number one is episode five, and milestone number two is episode 20. Once you've got to episode 20 at this point, you can decide whether or not you want to draw. I think you've got to get to episode 20, really, before you decide whether or not you want to drop out. Unless it's completely obvious right from the start as a train wreck. I doesn't mean to say that episode 20 has to be the exact same format as episode one, but I think you have to commit to doing at least 20 episodes. When you get to episode 20, it doesn't mean everything's Perfect. And you're perfect. Far from it. You get to episode 20, you realise this is a long struggle that we're going to have to go through, but I, I get this enough to go, actually, this is something that I'm willing to do because I can, I can hone this craft and a lot better.

Sadaf Beynon [20:05 - 20:06]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [20:06 - 20:28]: And so I think, I think by doing that you prevent a lot of this pod face, pod fade, which is, I think what, you know, I think is a good point from Jason. It's like, understand you're not going to be great, be okay with that and persist and persist and get through those episodes. I would genuinely suggest do not make any major decisions. So you've got at least to episode 20.

Sadaf Beynon [20:28 - 20:29]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [20:29 - 21:15]: And then I think when you get to episode 20, is, is the question almost isn't. Should I stop? The question is almost, have I got what it, what I need to get to episode 50? Because by the time you get to episode 50, episode 100, you've done it probably for half a year to a year. At that point, I think you can, you can start to get some ideas. And we've always found, actually I, I think we tend to make quite, we pivot quite a lot now, I think, because we've done quite a few podcasts. But I tend to find, like, if I think about ep, which was our first major podcast, we made some big changes around episode 20. We made some big changes around episode sort of 50 in terms of how we. And then we've done sort of lots of little tweaks. I don't know what episode number we're on now.

Sadaf Beynon [21:15 - 21:20]: But that wasn't, that wasn't like, okay, now I'm at 20, I'm gonna make a change. It just, just happened that way, didn't it?

Matt Edmundson [21:20 - 22:57]: Just happen and say. And again, I think you see this with podcasters a lot. There's sort of these key points, which is why I say milestones like episode five, episode 20, your next one, that's gonna be episode 50. And then maybe you can start making some life altering decisions. That doesn't mean, I think when you start, you go, well, can I do 50 episodes? Because there are, there are these unique podcasts where you go, right, let's just do 12 episodes. Like for example, for ep, we've thought about just doing these sort of mini offshoots about various different things, which Maybe would be 12 episodes long, but they would still be part of EP. That'd be under the umbrella of that probably one of the most contentious podcasts I've I've listened to. That was like a conversation, a fixed number of episodes. Contentious is the wrong word. I quite like these topics. One was Nolan Investigates Stonewall and the BBC, which I thought was one of. It was just a fascinating podcast, but again, it was a finite number of episodes. One was the Rise and fall of Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll. And the sort of. The investigation around that, that again was a fixed number of podcasts. So I get that there are these things which are fixed numbers and they are a series of podcasts, but they are connected to something bigger. But they are these sort of standalone series. I get that you might want to do something like that, but I. I think it's very hard to do a podcast and within side of 20 episodes. 20 episodes. Decide whether or not you want to keep doing it, because I don't think you know enough.

Sadaf Beynon [22:57 - 23:21]: No, I was talking to Jared Krause. Yeah. And when I'm Jared. That's right. And he was saying to me, was like, I think he was on it in six hundreds as far as his episodes go. And he was like, you know, how I. How I am now is not what I was like when I was doing my 1, 2, 3, 4, you know, even up to 20. And so it takes time to just, you know, as. As Jason said, trust the process.

Matt Edmundson [23:21 - 24:32]: Yeah. Just keep going, trust the process and build it up. And I think actually now I. My problem is not, should I carry on with podcasting. My problem is maybe I shouldn't start another podcast. I tend to find it at least once a week. I'll have a good idea for another show. I could do this. I'm just gonna give this person a ring, say, do you want to do a show with me about this topic? Because I think it would be quite fun. But then I think, oh, goodness me, that's just more production. It's more. More time. It's more thought. And I, you know, maybe I just need to hold base a little bit. And I think you can very quickly fall in love with it. But what else have you found that stops podcreet for you? I appreciate people listening. Might go, well, hang on a minute. You work for a podcasting company, so you had to get into podcasting. It's not like you can just episode 20 go, I'm out. I mean, you could, I suppose, yeah, go get a job at McDonald's or whatever. But I think it's. I appreciate for you, it's. It's slightly unique as it's part of your job. I guess a good question Here is. Would you. Do you think you would have started a podcast had you have not had this job?

Sadaf Beynon [24:33 - 24:33]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [24:33 - 24:34]: You would have.

Sadaf Beynon [24:34 - 24:34]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [24:35 - 24:35]: Really?

Sadaf Beynon [24:35 - 24:35]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [24:35 - 24:37]: What would it have been on?

Sadaf Beynon [24:38 - 24:55]: Well, that's a hard thing, actually, trying to narrow it down. I think that's also. That also comes with when you want to start a podcast. I want to start one, but where do I start and what would I talk about and who would I want to do it with? I'd love to do one with my sister. I've wanted to do that for years, but she doesn't want to do one.

Matt Edmundson [24:55 - 24:56]: Oh, come on, sis.

Sadaf Beynon [24:57 - 25:03]: And she'd be great at it, too. She's got so much wisdom and so.

Matt Edmundson [25:03 - 25:05]: Much dirt on you, which I think would be quite funny.

Sadaf Beynon [25:05 - 25:07]: Yes, that would be quite funny for you.

Matt Edmundson [25:07 - 25:10]: Yeah, I'm in. I'm listening. Come on, sis, let's do it.

Sadaf Beynon [25:12 - 25:27]: But, yeah, I've had a few ideas, and I'm actually, I don't know if I'm just gonna say it. I'm actually talking with Jen about doing one together with her. So she's someone that works with us in the office, and.

Matt Edmundson [25:27 - 25:36]: Yeah, very good. In fact, Jen's gonna start an. I'm hoping at some point this year, if you get the studio fixed up, she'll be doing Rooted.

Sadaf Beynon [25:37 - 25:37]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [25:38 - 26:11]: A new podcast coming out, which I think will be interesting. I'm not sure if I'm gonna get involved with that or whether Chris is gonna get involved with that. Hopefully it'll be Chris, but I think it'd be a really interesting podcast. And I, I, I do think, again, that pods fade, isn't it? How do you, how do you do it for the long haul? I think what I've noticed with you is as you've gone through, you've understood it more and more. You get a passion for it. And so it's like, I want to do it with my sister, I want to do it with Jen, and you start to see the benefits of it and understand. Understand it.

Sadaf Beynon [26:11 - 26:15]: I think it comes from, like, I love conversation.

Matt Edmundson [26:15 - 26:16]: You do like to talk.

Sadaf Beynon [26:16 - 26:36]: I do like to talk, and I like to, to learn. So I think putting those two things together and talking and, and chatting about topics that I'm really keen on. Yeah, it's really natural. Yeah. It's just getting used to the, the cameras on you and the production. That whole piece is quite big.

Matt Edmundson [26:36 - 28:30]: But yeah, yeah. The whole, the whole camera on you thing, I think people still struggle with that a lot because. And I know Sharon, my wife, for example, when she's on podcast, she's like, it's. It is out there. And it seems that once it's out there, you can't get rid of it. And for her, it's the permanency of it, which takes a lot to get ahead around. Whereas it is what it is. I mean, and I dare say in 30 years time. So I might drum up one of my videos ago, we shouldn't have said that. And I, And I get it's a legitimate fear based on what's happened, you know, over. Over pastures and without getting political. But, you know, the cancel culture thing, I think changed people's opinions and understanding on how to create content because of a fear of if I say something now, it might be right now, but in 30 years time, someone might go, well, you should have known this. You didn't. And therefore you are whatever, you know, insult, insert insult here. And therefore we don't like you, therefore you've lost your job or you did or whatever. And I think it's a legitimate fear for people that you do have to get over and either not worry about it. I think probably not caring about is not the right answer. But just be aware that actually of the reasons that you're doing this now, and I think as long as they're good and as long as they're making sense, because they've got to get you through those 20 to 50 episodes. That's the thing. Right. You have to have a reason strong enough and deep enough to get you through those 20 to 50 episodes. Where it is painful, where you don't really like your. Your. The sound of your voice, you don't like the fact you're on camera, you don't like the fact it's permanently out there. You've got to have a reason, I think big enough to pull you through that.

Sadaf Beynon [28:30 - 28:40]: Yeah. And I think that's kind of what Jason touched on, too, about. It has to be something that. What you're talking about, your podcast, has to be something that you enjoy.

Matt Edmundson [28:40 - 28:41]: Yes.

Sadaf Beynon [28:41 - 28:57]: Because I think that carries what eventually. Yes. But I think enjoying what you're talking about and who you're talking to is what's going to pull you through. Right. And then all those other things, because you're doing it persistently, consistently, those things fall into place in time.

Matt Edmundson [28:57 - 29:02]: Yeah, they do. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, you're right. And if you have.

Sadaf Beynon [29:02 - 29:03]: I'm right.

Matt Edmundson [29:03 - 29:12]: Of course you're right. You're always right. I don't even know why I said that. I mean, it's an obvious statement. Matthew, this is one of Those things in 30 years someone's going to go and go, why did you say that? Sad.

Sadaf Beynon [29:13 - 29:14]: Have you seen this?

Matt Edmundson [29:15 - 29:59]: What's wrong with you? You agreed with her. Don't you know, get cancelled. Whole business collapsed overnight because I said that setup was right. But it's, it's one of those, isn't it where I think if you have a, if you have an interview, podcast style podcast or a co host style podcast, you might like you say you might not enjoy the cameras being on you and that's something you can learn. I think you can learn how to talk to a camera, you can learn how to talk into a microphone. What you can't really learn is how to love people. So if you're chatting with someone in an interview and you just don't like talking to people and you don't like being around people, that's you. I don't know if you can coach that.

Sadaf Beynon [29:59 - 29:59]: No.

Matt Edmundson [29:59 - 30:00]: Do you mean there, there are some.

Sadaf Beynon [30:00 - 30:06]: There'S a natural curiosity and conversation that comes with it.

Matt Edmundson [30:06 - 30:29]: Yeah. And I think if you, if you do like a co hosted podcast, if you don't get on with the person you're co hosting, I think people are going to see that, you know, there's a reason why and, and deck they work well. There's a reason why Phil and Ola used to work well until they fell out and then they fall out and they can't work together anymore. Right. And of course if you're outside of the uk, you have no idea who I'm talking about.

Sadaf Beynon [30:29 - 30:32]: I'm genuinely sorry, I don't really know who he's talking about.

Matt Edmundson [30:32 - 31:53]: Whatever, whatever. You'd watch daytime TV as much as I do. Yeah. And so, but I think there's, there are some fundamentals in place. Right. And so you, you have to enjoy people. If people are going to be in your show, if it's just you doing a solo episode, almost like a Brett Cooper type esque, where you're reviewing something. Do you mean it's like my content is basically me picking apart your content, you know, or whatever that style of thing is, then fair play, I, you, you could have a hatred of people probably and get on with that. Depending on the type of content you want to create. I wouldn't advise it. But yeah, I mean you could do it. Whereas if you're like Joe Rogan, if he fundamentally didn't like talking to people, there's no way he could do a three hour podcast week in, week out and, and do what he does because he would just fall by the wayside, do you mean so, yes, I think some of these things you can learn, some of these things you can coach, but there are some fundamentals, depending on the type of podcast you want to do that I think you have to have in place. And a love of conversation, a love of people, and inquisitiveness, if you're doing that style of show is super, super important. You're nodding at me.

Sadaf Beynon [31:53 - 31:55]: You're looking at me. Yeah, I agree.

Matt Edmundson [31:55 - 31:56]: Are you. Are you churning?

Sadaf Beynon [31:56 - 31:57]: I am a little bit.

Matt Edmundson [31:59 - 32:01]: Any more thoughts you want to throw on this?

Sadaf Beynon [32:01 - 32:02]: No.

Matt Edmundson [32:02 - 32:03]: Okay. Should we call it?

Sadaf Beynon [32:03 - 32:04]: Yeah, let's call it.

Matt Edmundson [32:04 - 32:13]: Let's call it. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been great to chat with you this week. Hopefully you've enjoyed it on Friday. So today is. I mean, I know today's technically choose Wednesday.

Sadaf Beynon [32:14 - 32:14]: Oh, it's Wednesday.

Matt Edmundson [32:14 - 32:15]: Yeah, yeah, it's.

Sadaf Beynon [32:15 - 32:16]: But it's Tuesday.

Matt Edmundson [32:16 - 32:17]: It's Tuesday when it gets released.

Sadaf Beynon [32:17 - 32:18]: You're listening to it on a Tuesday.

Matt Edmundson [32:19 - 33:25]: You're listening to it if you listen to it the day it's released. Yes. Okay. If you're not, this is going to screw up everything I'm about to say. But in three days time on Friday, we will drop the full interview with Saraf and Jason. You can catch that whole conversation. It's normally about, what, 40, 45 minutes somewhere in there. So we. We only play segments on the show and then we chat about it. But you get to listen to the full interview as well and hear all the amazing nuggets that Jason has given in that conversation. Much more than we can cover in. In these shows. It is funny, isn't it, because you kind of go, well, we could do 10 episodes just based on that one interview alone. But we want to get more guests on the show and create the throughput. So do cheque it out because it will be a great conversation. I have no doubt. I've not heard it yet, so I have to wait until Friday to listen to it. So do cheque out that full conversation and enjoy that bonus episode. Next week we will be in the studio talking about Matt Anderson. Matt Anderson, Yeah. Now, do I know Matt?

Jason Greenwood [33:25 - 33:25]: You.

Sadaf Beynon [33:27 - 33:30]: If you don't, you will because he's going to be on the E Commerce podcast, too.

Matt Edmundson [33:30 - 33:39]: Okay, fantastic. So you're going to want to cheque this out with Matt Anson. Looking forward to that. Just because he's called Matt. Yeah, I think it's fair enough.

Sadaf Beynon [33:39 - 33:39]: Matt.

Jason Greenwood [33:39 - 33:40]: Matt.

Matt Edmundson [33:40 - 33:48]: Yeah, yeah. Matt. Matt. Yeah. So that's it from sadaf. That's it from me. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a brilliant week wherever you are in the world. I'll see you next time. Bye for now.

Sadaf Beynon [33:52 - 34:44]: And that brings us to the end of today's episode at Podjunction. If you've enjoyed the insights from this episode and want to hear the full conversation with today's special guest, don't Forget to visit podjunction.com where you'll find more information about how you can join Podjunction cohort. Whether you listened while on the go or in a quiet moment, thank you for letting us be a part of your day. Remember, every episode is a chance to gain insights and to transition transform your business with podcasting. So keep on tuning in, keep on learning, and until next time, happy podcasting. Sa.