Navigating Early Podcasting Hurdles | Steven Pemberton

Sadaf Beynon [0:06 - 0:21]: Welcome back to Podjunction podcast, where podcasters learn to grow their business and learn how to use the microphone and that too. My name is Sadaf Beynon, and with me is Matt Edmundson the Magnificent.

Matt Edmundson [0:24 - 0:25]: It's like this pause.

Matt Edmundson [0:26 - 0:27]: Have you forgotten who I am?

Sadaf Beynon [0:27 - 0:31]: I was going to say Max, and I went, no, Matt Edmundson.

Matt Edmundson [0:31 - 0:31]: Oh, ok.

Matt Edmundson [0:32 - 0:33]: So you're trying to form a joke in your head.

Sadaf Beynon [0:33 - 0:36]: Yeah, it wasn't working, so I reverted.

Matt Edmundson [0:36 - 0:50]: So that worked well. Yeah, that worked well as an intro. Well, it's great to see everybody. Great to be on another podcast talking about podcasting and how to use it to grow your business. We got a new guest today.

Sadaf Beynon [0:50 - 0:50]: We do.

Matt Edmundson [0:50 - 0:51]: Who's the guest?

Sadaf Beynon [0:51 - 1:03]: His name is Steven Pemberton. He's the host of Voice Like a Lion, and he also is the CEO of Elevatum, I Believe, and which is a digital agency.

Matt Edmundson [1:03 - 1:13]: Yeah, he's been on eCommerce podcast. Right. So I've talked to Steven before. What a legend this guy is. And obviously he's got his own podcast, so you got to sit down, have a chat with him.

Sadaf Beynon [1:13 - 1:13]: I did. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [1:13 - 1:14]: How did it go?

Sadaf Beynon [1:14 - 1:15]: Very well.

Matt Edmundson [1:15 - 1:15]: Yeah?

Sadaf Beynon [1:15 - 1:17]: Yeah, Awesome. I enjoyed it.

Matt Edmundson [1:18 - 1:19]: So what are they going to learn today?

Sadaf Beynon [1:19 - 1:33]: So today we are going to be talking about his own personal journey into podcasting. That's what we're starting off with. So we're going to be learning about the perseverance. Perseverance. Learning about the importance of perseverance in your podcasting journey.

Matt Edmundson [1:33 - 1:52]: Okay. It's going to be one of the perseverance journey. Yes, like that. So, yeah, this is going to be Steve. We're going to have this conversation, then sadaf, and I'll be back to carry on the conversation after this clip. Don't go anywhere. We'll see you in a sec. Grab your notebooks, grab your pens, because Steven is a legend and you're going to want to know. Want to write down what he says. So here we go.

Sadaf Beynon [1:52 - 1:57]: So, Steven, let's start off with your podcasting journey. How did you first get into it?

Steven Pemberton [1:57 - 3:07]: So the way that I first got into it was a little over or going on almost two years. There was somebody who is really important in my life, especially now, and they spoke over me. It's like, hey, you're gonna be a voice like a lion to this generation. So I thought, oh, that's really cool. Maybe I'll do something with that. I thought, you know, that would be an interesting name for a podcast. And so about six months later, after receiving that, I decided that I was gonna start A podcast. That's why there's a line behind me. That's why the name of the show is Voice Like a Lion. And when I started the show, it was just so funny, because when I started, it was just supposed to be a video journal. It was just me talking to me, and it was me being able to process. It was almost like a private form of therapy, if I'm honest, because I was just going. It's like, hey, today was amazing. And here's the things that I went through, and these are the people that I talked to, and this is what I learned from the people that I talked to. And it wasn't even supposed to go out. Like, I have so many episodes recorded that I haven't even released because it was just me talking to me. And in the beginning, there was nobody listening to that thing. I would have one listener every now and then, and that was my mom. And that would only be if I sent it to her.

Sadaf Beynon [3:08 - 3:14]: I love that. So how has your podcast evolved since you first started?

Steven Pemberton [3:14 - 4:16]: Well, in the beginning, like I said, I wanted it to be a video journal. Just kind of going over more of the personal aspects of my life and the people I was interacting with, but not so much of the business side. And what I realized was I couldn't really separate the two. I mean, that's the way that I approach business. If when people work with me in business, they get all of me. You're not just getting the one side of me. So what ends up happening is I start reading books, and I actually have somebody that I got introduced to, and he was coming out with a book. And so when he was coming out with a book, he sent me a copy early, about two months early. I read it. Most incredible book I read in 2023. So I said, hey, would you be willing to come on my show? And I was like, I got this podcast. Would you be willing to come on it? And he said, sure, absolutely. So before he comes on, I have somebody reach out to me on LinkedIn and says, Hey, I saw that you added podcast host, which that is a secret tip. If you want to grow your followers on LinkedIn, just put podcast host. You'll have a hundred thousand people that want to connect with you to help you boost your podcast ratings. But amazing.

Sadaf Beynon [4:16 - 4:19]: Great tip. I'm writing that one down.

Steven Pemberton [4:19 - 5:52]: But with the person who reached out to me, he said, hey, this is who I am. I've been on a zillion different podcasts. I would love to come on your show. So I said, okay, great. I'll have this person on my podcast first, and then I'll have this other author that I really enjoyed his book. I have him come on. And I can tell you that if there was ever an episode that makes you want to quit, it was that very first episode for me. That guest, I mean, he was the meanest guest I had ever encountered. I mean, I've been an entrepreneur for going on five years. Years. I've talked to so many people, and this guy was just the meanest guy. And I went, really? This is my first. This is my first guesting experience where he's coming on my show, on my first hosting experience. And it's like he was just ripping me apart and that. But what was so fascinating was after the show ended, because it's supposed to be. Usually I go about 30 minutes to an hour, just depends on how the flow goes. And it was really fascinating. That show lasted 15 minutes. And when that show was over, he was just like, wow, that was amazing. You did a great job. I was like, that whole time you were yelling at me and getting upset at me for every question I asked. It's like. But somehow I did amazing. It's like, okay, great. And. But that's my thing. For anyone who is. If you're newer in podcasting and you're having those experiences where you're a host and it just doesn't feel like it's clicking, you're missing steps, you don't feel like that you can get it all together. It's fine. This. Keep going. I promise you that it'll be okay. The people who are guests are not really going to care. They're just excited to be there.

Sadaf Beynon [5:56 - 6:04]: If that got you curious and you want to catch the full episode, be sure to subscribe to the show. We've got plenty more great conversations coming up.

Matt Edmundson [6:09 - 6:36]: Welcome back. I really want to listen to that episode now. I don't even know if it's still up, but I really want to listen to that episode that he was talking about. I'm like, what was so mean about this guy? But that was great. Thanks, Steven. You know what? One of the things I can say about Steven, when we record interviews, like for EP or push, you hit the sort of the stop recording button.

Sadaf Beynon [6:36 - 6:37]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [6:37 - 9:14]: And there's a sort of this it's done now kind of thing, and people get in the conversation. They enjoy it, but there's something about hitting that record button to stop the recording that just puts everybody back at ease. And Steven, at the end of it, we. I wished I'D recorded it, but we hit the stop recording button. And he was so kind. He was really kind to me. And you do get these guests that come on and they'll say to you things like, oh, man, you were just. You are epic. That was a really great conversation. Really appreciate that. The way you talked about this was super helpful. The way you interviewed or asked that question. He said, that was so insightful. No one's ever asked me that question before. And, and, and he took his time just to go out of his way to say, well done. And most of the time, guests, I mean, guests are great, right? They. Most of the time, they get that great. They come on the show and they are grateful to be there. And some people say, I really enjoyed that, and that's basically about all you're going to get out of them. But one guest in three, one guest in four goes out of their way just to say something really helpful and super positive, and you kind of go, this is a reason. This is going to help me keep going. And so I really valued what Steven did that. So, as a complete aside, nothing to do with the. The tips that we are talking about today in terms of perseverance, but I would encourage you, if you go onto a podcast as a guest, right, which you will inevitably do if you start podcasting. So not only will you get guests on your show, you will be invited to go on other people's show, and I suggest you do that, actually, so you see what it's like from the other side of the table. But when you go onto a podcast and the button is stopped, you know, you've hit the. Even when it's recording towards the end, you know, people really like it if you praise them and it's recorded as well. But go out of your way to say something super positive to that host, even if it was a bit of a train wreck of an interview, because it will just help them, you know, And I've been on an awful lot of podcasts and I've learned this just actually, everybody starts somewhere, and it may be that I'm being interviewed by someone at the start of their journey, and I was awful at the start of my journey, and I. And actually, it's incumbent upon people like me to go, you know what? Keep going. You did this really well. That was super good. With your next guest, try this. They might find it super helpful. Give them a bit of advice, give them a bit of encouragement, and sow back into the community, I think. Super helpful.

Sadaf Beynon [9:14 - 9:22]: Yeah. Tell us more about your journey then My journey? Yeah. When you first started, you said you were not so great. Tell us more about that.

Matt Edmundson [9:22 - 9:37]: I just. I had no idea what I was doing or how I was doing it. There was no real playbook back then. And so we. In our last episode, we talked. Kendall talked about doing research. We didn't do any of that.

Sadaf Beynon [9:37 - 9:39]: No. Jumped in.

Matt Edmundson [9:40 - 10:27]: Jumped in. No. We didn't answer any of the questions that you're supposed to ask. Like, we didn't do any of the research. I didn't research any other podcast doing the same thing. I didn't think about what we were necessarily. Well, that's not true. We talked about what we were going to talk about, but when I first started interviewing people and recording it, it felt really, really awkward. And I felt really awkward. And I was so busy thinking of what the next question should be that I was not listening to the answer that they gave. And so that's a really. I mean, that's just not a great conversation to listen to, is it, really? If you're. If you're a listener, kind of like, what, Matt? The flow is all kind of weird here, and these are the kind of things that you learn as you go along.

Sadaf Beynon [10:27 - 10:28]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [10:28 - 12:07]: And it would have been easier. I mean, the guests we had at the start of, certainly of the Beauty podcast, certainly of Jersey, of ep, Very, very gracious with me as I hone my craft now. I'm not perfect, don't get me wrong. I still get things wrong all the time. But I just remember. I remember a couple of months ago, listening to one of the early episodes to one of these podcasts and going, oh, dear, Lor. It's just like, okay, so when people tell me they've gone back to listen from the beginning, I'm like, you don't want to apologize. You really don't need to do that. And so, yeah, I think I was. I was not good. And I mean, Steven's a really nice guy. I mean, genuinely lovely, lovely guys. Super encouraging, super passionate about what he does. He was a great guest on ep. But if he was just starting out his podcast and that guy had come on, who's an author, maybe he's in a whole bunch of podcasts before. Maybe he's expecting it to go a certain way. And actually, I think. I'm not saying that this was on Steven or the guests, because I've not heard the episode, but did the guest at that time know that this was early on in his podcast journey? Because I think people have grace. If they do. I would imagine with Steven he probably did, because Steven's just. His heart's on his sleeve, you know? But it's one of those, isn't it? People will give you grace if you let them know what's going on. And I think don't be. Don't be afraid to do that. You don't have to pretend to be something that you're not. But when you get mean guess.

Sadaf Beynon [12:08 - 12:10]: Have you had a mean guess?

Matt Edmundson [12:10 - 13:29]: Have I had a mean guess? I don't remember having a mean guess, mainly because I would probably get mean back, which is probably not the helpful response, really, but I don't think I've had it. I've had guests that look like they don't want to be there. Like, you know, like you're having a conversation. And it's like, I'm here because I have to be, not because I want to be. I'm. And I. I sort of take it as a personal mission to try and get them to smile. Right. And so I just get you to laugh. I don't care what's going to happen the next time. My whole job now is try and get you to laugh. Right. It's a challenge. But it's one of those interesting things where I think I know before I hit the record button whether it's going to go well based on their initial response. And you can generally tell if people don't want to be there, in which case it makes a lot of sense to go, do you think now's the best time to record this? Because one or two things will happen. They'll either be honest and go, no, can we reschedule? Or they will go, oh, no, no, it's totally fine. And they give them that self, that mental check which says, maybe I should, you know, not look like I've just been slapped in the face with a wet fish. So. And they just sort of g themselves up and then they get into it. But I think it's. Calling it out means you get a better interview, I think, at the end.

Sadaf Beynon [13:29 - 13:32]: Yeah. Which makes a lot of sense, because this is your podcast, right?

Matt Edmundson [13:32 - 13:33]: Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [13:33 - 13:34]: You don't want to. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [13:34 - 13:49]: And I've not had to do this, mainly because, you know, your quality control. So we. We get good guests on the show. But I know people that have been on here, for example, Chloe and various other people, they got partway through recording and just stopped.

Sadaf Beynon [13:49 - 13:49]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [13:49 - 14:10]: And just gone. I just don't think this is working, do you? And they've gone, no, I don't think it's working. Okay, well, let's not, you know, force a. Force an issue here. And I mean, I hear them when they say that. Well, I've not had to do that, I think, because we. We do select very well, or you do with the prequel process. But it's quite a brave move to.

Sadaf Beynon [14:10 - 14:11]: Yeah, for sure.

Matt Edmundson [14:11 - 14:19]: Just don't think this is working, is it? But actually, you're being super respectful of their time and yours just to call it out. And, Scott, I think this is working.

Sadaf Beynon [14:19 - 14:19]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [14:19 - 14:40]: What do you think we need to do? I think that's a super, super. You get. I think once you've done podcasting for a while, you get to a stage where you feel like you can do that, but it's not. So it's like when you first start a business, you just take. You say yes to everybody, even though they're maybe not the right client, but it's, you know, it's just. They're a client at the end of the day.

Sadaf Beynon [14:40 - 14:40]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [14:40 - 14:48]: But as you mature in business, actually, one of the things you get the luxury of is the ability to say no to people and to say, this is not working out, is it?

Sadaf Beynon [14:48 - 14:49]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [14:49 - 15:01]: And I think it's important to be able to do that and not have an issue with it. Yeah. But, yeah, I can see why. If he had a really mean guest at the start, why he was just like, this is an awful experience. Why would I want to do this again?

Sadaf Beynon [15:01 - 15:07]: Yeah. What about you? Did you have any challenges in those early days that you felt you had to persevere through?

Matt Edmundson [15:07 - 15:38]: Yeah, yeah. I mean, when we started the Beauty podcast back in 2012, 2013, it was a really interesting one. Part of me enjoyed it, but because no one really understood pocketing. Pocketing, Nice. That's what happens. I don't even know what pocketing is, but it's definitely. We should write pocketing.com go see if it's available. But when we started the podcasting as a form of marketing.

Sadaf Beynon [15:42 - 15:43]: Also known as marketing.

Matt Edmundson [15:44 - 18:21]: Yeah. Also known as pocketing. When we. That's going to stick now, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. When we. When we started doing that, no one really understood it, and there was no immediate return on investment. It's like, we don't know if anyone's listening. We don't know if we get any sales from this. Why are we doing it? And so there was that. And that was not just from other people in the team. That was from me as well. We just didn't know the technology was not like it was today. You know, I've often made reference to the Fact that the original sound desk is right behind us in this studio and trying to figure it. Now you can do. We can record this podcast, Riverside. You know, we upload the recordings to Riverside. If we've not recorded direct on Riverside, Riverside does the editing. They go. There you go. There's your audio version, which I can then upload to Captivate. And it literally, it's done in like five minutes. And now with software, you can go from a recorded episode to an uploaded video, an uploaded podcast, a blog post, and social media content in about an hour, an hour and a half. Right. If you think about what we had to do in 2012, it took you an hour and a half just to set up. You'd record the podcast and you had to record it on a separate device. You'd then have to import the audio into your computer, which would take ages because computers were slow back then. You would then have to use something like Adobe Audition to master the audio. So you'd spend three or four hours editing it. So it would take a whole day. And this was just audio only, whereas now it's so much quicker. So I think. Yeah, I think there were. There were internal. What can I call it? Treacle. There was internal, you know, like walking through treacle. There were things that were trying to slow us down internally in terms of our own internal mindset and the complications and the time and so on and so forth. And then there was the issue with guests getting people to come onto the show. People not really understanding how it worked. We're not really understanding how it worked. I think now there's so much more information available. But, yeah, it was. They were both external. I'm just making words up today. Parketing and external. There were internal and external, known as external factors that would try and stop us doing it. And I think, like, with anything new like this, you know, if you launch a rocket, you need a lot of fuel right at the start to escape the orbit. To create any new habit, you need an awful lot of fuel. And fortunately, we managed to put all the setbacks behind us and just keep going. Yeah, yeah. And here we are.

Sadaf Beynon [18:21 - 18:29]: Yeah, it's. What you're saying reminds me of what Steven was saying, too. Like, you just need to start and you'll evolve over time.

Matt Edmundson [18:30 - 19:38]: Yeah, I'm a big fan of that. I'm a. I'm a big fan of. Just have a go. There's two. I've often said this. I think there's. There's two ways to approach life. If you think about. You're sat in a car and you're trying to get from one side of city to the other that you can either go, right, I need to get over there. So let me pull out a map, let me plan that route. All these road works on that road, therefore I need to go this. And you spend half an hour trying to figure out the quickest route. There's the other type of person that gets in the car and goes, right, we need to go that way. So let's just head over there and see what happens and we'll sort of feel your way through. And I, I tend to be the latter when it comes to this kind of thing. And there is just immense power in starting and you're going to get setbacks and it's going to be like treacle. There's going to be these internal and external things trying to slow you down, but just starting actually gets you going. And if. As long as you're adaptable along the way. Which is why we always say to clients when we're coaching clients in podcasting, forget the first 10 episodes. Really probably forget the first 20 episodes.

Sadaf Beynon [19:38 - 19:38]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [19:38 - 19:52]: Because episode 20 will look very different from episode one. And all we're going to do is sit alongside you and coach you. And actually a lot of the coaching is not necessarily telling you how to do it better or they will have some suggestions. It's just, keep going, dude.

Sadaf Beynon [19:52 - 19:52]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [19:52 - 20:22]: I mean, that's a lot of what it is. Because by the time my experience is, by the time you've got to episode 20, you've built the habit. But 95% of people do not get to episode 20 and they've dropped out and they've sort of started and splitted and these things of sort of mean guess, internal factors, fear, whatever it is, stops them getting to where they need to be. I think it's a real shame. I do. In some respects, I do. In some respects I don't. Because it means there's an awful lot less competition for me on the podcast space.

Sadaf Beynon [20:22 - 20:24]: Yeah. Was that as well?

Matt Edmundson [20:24 - 20:31]: Yeah, yeah. So it's easy to use, but I think, I think, yeah, it's starting in itself is its own power.

Sadaf Beynon [20:31 - 20:32]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [20:32 - 20:37]: And just having a go and seeing what happens, being able to adapt and iterate. Super, super helpful.

Sadaf Beynon [20:37 - 20:43]: Yeah. And then refining your voice, your content over time. And there's forget plenty of time for that.

Matt Edmundson [20:43 - 21:57]: Yeah, there's plenty of time. And the reality of it is, I mean, the way we work is with clients is in stages, isn't it? So first job that we have phase we call it phase one, and we. The way we work is with clients is we work in two phases. Phase one is just literally getting you to episode five and through the first five, because by the time you got to episode five, you know, if you feel like you could do this, not that you're great at it, but if you could do it. And so by the time we've got clients to episode five, there's still no podcast. We've not done any branding, we've not done any music. We don't know what it's called. We just encourage clients just to talk to somebody that they know in their field and go and get five guests and to see how we feel about it. We'll add the music, we'll add the intros and outros and all that sort of stuff at a later date, because we don't want to get bogged down with that. We just want to stop and just start having the conversations. Once you hit episode 5, you're then @ a milestone which goes, do I want to keep doing this? Yes or no? So that's your first challenge, I think, is getting to episode five. By the time you've got to episode 10. So the next five episodes, you're still talking to people that you know, but you started to introduce things like, you've got a podcast name, you've got the graphics, you've got the music. You kind of feel like this is starting to get an identity.

Sadaf Beynon [21:57 - 21:58]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [22:00 - 23:17]: When you hit episode 11, episode 20 to episode 20, you're now thinking slightly wider in your community and slightly wider in your circle. Who can I reach out to that maybe, I don't know, that could be a guest on this show. And I think you're then, because by the time you got episode 10, you kind of feeling a bit more confident, and you're just going to do the next 10 episodes with people that you don't really know to hone your skills of being able to extract useful stuff from people that you've never really spoken to before and. And connect with them quickly and instantly. And that's it. You know that. That's totally it. That's the process. But recognizing those milestones and persevering through them, which is. But the first five episodes, I would almost say, act like you're going to throw them in the bin in many ways. I mean, you don't have to. If they're any good, you keep them, obviously. And it's always a great reminder where you started. But I think sometimes just starting going, right, I'm Going to get to episode five. I've not got all the answers. I've not got the podcast name, I've got the music. I've not got it set up on Captivate or YouTube or any of that sort of stuff. I'm just going to go and find five people that I know and talk about the niche or topic or the area that I want to do a podcast in and just learn some stuff is my advice.

Sadaf Beynon [23:17 - 23:18]: Yeah. Learning by doing.

Matt Edmundson [23:18 - 23:48]: Yeah. Just crack on. Just crack on. I mean, there are. I mean, obviously there are things you can do to help yourself and there are. Like, when we coach clients, we can obviously give you scripts and ideas and so on and so forth and brainstorm questions and how to word those questions and give guidance. But, you know, it's a nice feature to have, but if you don't want to do that, then fine, just you crack on. Just have a go and see what happens. And that's what we did. And we figured this out as we've gone along.

Sadaf Beynon [23:48 - 23:49]: Yep.

Matt Edmundson [23:49 - 23:51]: So, yeah. I don't know if that answers your question.

Sadaf Beynon [23:51 - 23:52]: Yes, it does. Thank you.

Matt Edmundson [23:52 - 23:53]: Kind of remember what the question was.

Sadaf Beynon [23:53 - 23:55]: Neither can I, but it was good.

Matt Edmundson [23:58 - 24:01]: Wow. Well, how's the wrist, by the way?

Sadaf Beynon [24:01 - 24:02]: Wrist is good.

Matt Edmundson [24:02 - 24:02]: Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon [24:02 - 24:03]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [24:05 - 24:14]: Foosh. If you weren't listening to last week's episode, Sada fooshed her wrist falling on a outstretched. Outstretched hand.

Sadaf Beynon [24:14 - 24:14]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [24:14 - 24:22]: I'm never gonna remember what that means. Falling on an outstretched hand. She fooshed her wrist. And so, yeah, I just wanna make sure. Obviously, your wrist is okay.

Sadaf Beynon [24:22 - 24:23]: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson [24:25 - 24:35]: I still think you say it's foosh. I think you just went and googled it. I think actually you punched Jeff, your husband. That's what I think happened. He did something. You went bang and then you went, ow.

Sadaf Beynon [24:35 - 24:42]: He's not quite sure that it happened the way it happened. It's like, what were you trying to get out of?

Matt Edmundson [24:42 - 25:02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna call Jeff. What really happened, Jeff? Wrist gate. What happened at Risk gate. Yeah, let me see the security footage. Jeff would be brilliant. Yeah. Let's find out what's really going on with the old wrist there. Anyway, anything else on? We've got Steven again next week.

Sadaf Beynon [25:02 - 25:03]: We do.

Matt Edmundson [25:04 - 25:09]: So we're going to carry on our conversation with Steven. Is there anything else, by the way, you want to draw out on this?

Sadaf Beynon [25:09 - 25:11]: No, I think we're good.

Matt Edmundson [25:11 - 25:33]: All good. So, yeah, do join us next week as we carry on our conversation with the wonderful Steven Pemberton. And we are going to look at some more good stuff from him. So make sure you like and subscribe to the show. Wherever you get your podcasts from, stay connected with us. Do reach out to us. You can reach out to us on social media. I think Podjunction's even got its own Instagram handle.

Sadaf Beynon [25:33 - 25:36]: It does, yeah. Which is Podjunction Podcast.

Matt Edmundson [25:37 - 25:46]: Okay. So you can reach out to us through that. You can find me @mattedmundson and you can find you @iamsadafbeynon. Why are you laughing?

Sadaf Beynon [25:47 - 25:48]: I don't know.

Matt Edmundson [25:48 - 26:17]: Just apparently when you type in iamsadafbeynon on an Instagram and that's what your handle is. I am Sadaf Beynon. Yeah, you need to laugh as you're typing it. Instagram.com I'm set up. We'll set your best laugh. Yeah, excellent. Brilliant. Anyway, yeah, do reach out to us. Do come and say hello. Well, say hello to me. You might be of the opinion that Sadaf's a slight lunatic, but that's okay.

Sadaf Beynon [26:17 - 26:19]: That's Matt's opinion.

Matt Edmundson [26:21 - 26:32]: Reach out to Sadaf and just ask her how her wrist is doing. That'll be fine. But, yeah, it's been great to chat to you. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. We will see you next time. Bye for now.

Sadaf Beynon [26:36 - 27:09]: And that brings us to the end of today's episode at Podjunction. If you've enjoyed the insights from this episode and want to hear the full conversation with today's special guest, don't Forget to visit podjunction.com where you'll find more information about how you can join Podjunction cohort. Whether you listened while on the go or in a quiet moment, thank you for letting us be a part of your day. Remember, every episode is a chance to gain insights and to transform your business with podcasting. So keep on tuning in, keep on learning, and until next time, happy.