Confessions of a Podcast Expert | Matt Halloran

Sadaf Beynon (00:00)

Today's episode is a little different. Matt Halloran and I are both in the business of helping leaders grow their influence through podcasting. Matt is the co-founder of Proud Mouth and I run Pod Junction. What's cool is we're on similar missions, different lanes. So in this conversation, we're digging into what's really working in podcasting right now for growth, for credibility, and for connection. Welcome to the show, Matt.

Matt Halloran (00:25)

I'm super happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Sadaf Beynon (00:27)

No, it's our pleasure. Matt, to kick things off, can you tell us a bit about Proud Mouth and how podcasting fits into your business model?

Matt Halloran (00:36)

Yeah, well, a couple of different things. So we've actually built our entire podcasting business off our podcast, much like what you're doing. We did over 500 episodes of a show called the Top Advisor Marketing Podcast. We have a whole system here that our clients plug into. We've got nine podcast growth tactics. We've got seven rocket boosters of influence to make sure that you're doing the right things and all your rockets are firing at the same time so that you're heading in the direction that you want.

Sadaf Beynon (00:43)

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (01:03)

But we exclusively work with people who are experts. Our specialty is financial services professionals, independent financial services professionals. And I'm sure we're going to dive into the niche component of how you use a podcast. But that is the background that my partner Kirk Lowe and I both came from financial services. He was a marketing branding guy and I was a practice management consultant. And we decided that we wanted to close a huge gap within our industry. And 10,000 episodes later and over 150,000 social media posts.

That's what we do every day all day.

Sadaf Beynon (01:35)

Amazing. did podcasting, was it part of the plan from day one or did it evolve into that? What was that like?

Matt Halloran (01:41)

Yeah,

no, it was it was from day one. So so my background, I started doing radio when I was 13. And my partner is a branding genius. And so we realized that with my ability to interview people and to do the post production that back then it was audio only. Then you know, and he would work on all the graphic design treatments make everything look great. And then we had he and I both did the social media writing because I actually wrote a book on social media and financial services. And so yeah, it was

Sadaf Beynon (01:47)

So well.

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (02:09)

was was really, this is corny, but he's like the chocolate to my peanut butter, right? And we just really balanced each other very, very well. And then to be fully transparent, COVID hit. And we weren't entirely ready for it, because our whole industry had to change how they market. And we were that solution. So we were like driving an F1 race car around the track while repairing the engine and building the engine and trying to find out what tires to use as we're in the middle of a race.

Sadaf Beynon (02:34)

Yeah.

Wow, that's fascinating. Matt, tell me, so when you started it from day one, was the idea the content creation side of things or was it business growth?

Matt Halloran (02:50)

Yes, both. So our model and we teach this to our clients is we focus much like what you do on guests. Because I know that if I can bring on high profile guests on my show, the price of admission for them to come on our show is that they'll share the show with their network. And so we just kept getting more and more and more and more people who wanted to come on the show who were very influential in financial services specifically. And then our podcast just kept getting out there. And then

Sadaf Beynon (02:52)

both.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Halloran (03:20)

the content that we created off the podcast, because the podcast itself can't be the audio recording in the video can't be the only thing you do with this long form content, you have to learn how to, we call it the atomic content method, chop it up and use it so that your podcast has a much longer shelf life than what most podcasts have, which is about 48 hours.

Sadaf Beynon (03:31)

Yeah.

So what is your atomic content method?

Matt Halloran (03:46)

Yeah, so it's a five step method. It's to find the gold. So look through the episode to try to find great little pieces that you can use as a YouTube short or a Instagram reel. Then we take that and then we change the format, right? So it's not going to necessarily be an audio clip. It's gonna be a quote meme. It's gonna be a video based post, what are those carousel posts on different things.

Sadaf Beynon (04:06)

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (04:13)

And then we share the post everywhere we actually share for our clients. And then the big thing is, and this is where most people go wrong as they post in Ghost, you actually have to stay on the social media platforms after you post because the algorithm knows that you're there. While after you post, you need to be ready to interact with the post, but then more importantly, you should be interacting with your ideal clients in the algorithm, because it's teaching the algorithm who you want that post to be shown to.

Sadaf Beynon (04:18)

you

Matt Halloran (04:39)

And then the last step is rinse, lather, and repeat. We really think that people work far and away too hard on creating their content and they use it once. And you can reuse your content over and over and over again, which is just a good use of your time.

Sadaf Beynon (04:57)

That's excellent. What type of media posts do you think work well or best? And does it depend on the platform that you're on? Do see what I'm saying?

Matt Halloran (05:09)

Well, it definitely depends

on the platform you're on, but video is king. I mean, it's just that's the world that we live in now. Our YouTube shorts that we do for our clients get probably 10 to 20 times the views of anything else that we create for them. podcasting is queen, video is king, text based posts are the princess.

Sadaf Beynon (05:22)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, I'm actually I was having a conversation not too long ago about that. the I found from personal experience that the YouTube shorts work really well. LinkedIn, like posting videos on LinkedIn doesn't work as well. I'm not sure why. I don't know what the reason is behind that. But have you found that at all?

Matt Halloran (05:55)

Not really. mean, LinkedIn's algorithm is really just a jumble of, it doesn't make sense. And they change it all the time. And I don't know why they're doing that. Our videos on LinkedIn actually do really, really well. What works the best, and again, this changes by the time this episode comes out of my change again, is the carousel images, multiple images within a post. For some reason, they are preferring that. I mean, if you look at Instagram,

Sadaf Beynon (05:57)

No.

Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (06:25)

Instagram reels kill anything else that you're posting on Instagram, Facebook stories, they're promoting Facebook stories. They're even trying to prefer some video on on X right now or Twitter. But Twitter is still pretty text based. But you know, if you look at some of the other things that a lot of people don't talk about, you know, the sub stacks, the reddits, all of those things. Those are pretty old school blog ish sort of pieces and they perform the best there.

Sadaf Beynon (06:30)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Cool. Also wanted to ask you about you said post and ghost. I thought that was quite funny because I think I do that for sure. But you were talking about interacting with people that are in your niche or the types of people you would want to make sure your content gets to. So is that sharing that on the platform saying here, check out this or what does that look like?

Matt Halloran (07:16)

Yeah, so in financial services, sharing is difficult because of compliance regulations through FINRA and the SEC here in the States. It's really just interacting with the posts, liking, commenting, clicking on their profiles. mean, the algorithm is very basic when it comes to that. It knows where you're going right after you go somewhere else. And so if you put a chain together of like, I, because I connect with a lot of podcasters,

So I am always looking for, okay, so I connect with this podcast or I look on the sidebar on the right, it says, hey, you might wanna connect with these people. And then so after I post, I'm going and clicking on all of these different places to teach the algorithm that that's really what I want the algorithm to show me instead of what the algorithm just organically thinks I want it to show. And by the way, that's not just LinkedIn. That's any social media platform.

because they're all algorithm based. mean, TikTok is a perfect example of that. I mean, TikTok's algorithm is the greatest algorithm that's ever been made for social media in my.

Sadaf Beynon (08:22)

Yeah, wow. Thank you for sharing that. Matt, let's switch gears a little bit. I want to know how you or how Proud Mouth helps your clients use their voice.

Matt Halloran (08:28)

Okay.

Well, and I think that's a huge gap that I saw. So I went to an event called Podcast Movement a number of years ago where there were like 3000 podcasters in a conference. It was magnificent, by the way. know, kind of hanging out with your people was really, really cool. And as I was going through the vendor hall and I was looking at the agenda, I noticed that there really wasn't anybody helping people get.

Sadaf Beynon (08:49)

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (09:01)

good behind the microphone. It's like, well, you have a microphone. You can talk. You're a podcaster. And I'm like, this is a show. You know, like you. This is a show. You need to be prepared. You need to be warmed up. You need to know how to breathe. You need to know how to use your microphone. You know, you need to know where you're putting in your pauses. You know, is there is it going to be funny? mean, there's all sorts of planning. And so that's a huge component of what we do. We don't just do a content marketing strategy piece, but we also do a lot of performance coaching.

Sadaf Beynon (09:03)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Halloran (09:31)

to make sure that because this is going to sound kind of negative, most financial advisors are pretty boring. And so we have to get them to become performers. And we have a whole system for that. Just being able to use the microphone is a great example. You know, there are people who are far away too close to the microphone. Then there's people who are far away from microphone and nobody can hear them or they're using the wrong microphone and they sound terrible.

Sadaf Beynon (09:55)

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (09:59)

And you can be saying the smartest things in the whole wide world, but unless your audio quality is good, they're not going to listen.

Sadaf Beynon (10:04)

Hmm.

Hmm. That is such a good point.

And how do you prepare them for that? Is that quite a process?

Matt Halloran (10:15)

Well, it is definitely a process and it's a muscle that they have to exercise. So a lot of it really has to do with the preparation. You can't just leave one meeting and jump into your podcast studio and think you're going to have a great show. Right. So so we really say you need to block out a whole hour for a 30 minute episode. The first 10 minutes of that hour, you're warming up your instrument. Right. So we talk about doing.

Sadaf Beynon (10:18)

Yeah.

Mm.

Matt Halloran (10:38)

addiction exercise and warming up your voice like I usually sing just to get my voice warmed up. I mean, it's pretty early here in the States is we're recording this. So I wanted to make sure my voice was good. You also need to change your physical state. And so I recommend that they jump around a little bit, not to really just get their heart rate up, but just to kind of get loosened up. And then they need to practice. And this is something that I don't really understand why more people don't do this. But if you consider yourself a professional, shouldn't you practice?

Because like you look at professional football players in the UK or professional basketball players here in the States, they practice every day, all day. They don't need to. They can make the shot with their eyes closed, but they still do it because they know that is what they need to do to keep that muscle memory in place. And I think that podcasters need to do the same thing. Anybody who's creating content needs to get into that natural cadence, that natural rhythm and find their groove.

Sadaf Beynon (11:15)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (11:35)

because then when they're here and they're ready to do the show, it's just gonna be so much better.

Sadaf Beynon (11:41)

Yeah, even if you're a natural speaker, you still need to keep working that muscle. Is that what you're saying?

Matt Halloran (11:49)

I do. And so one of our earliest clients was a friend of mine who as a national speakers Hall of Fame speaker. And he was like, Matt, you know, I really want to start a podcast, you know, because I love this stuff. And he got through his first three episodes. We generally have them record some episodes just to see if they're going to be improving. And I called him back and I was good, dude, you're terrible because this isn't speech. This is a conversation. His go to words is I'm so so she knows we're just repetitive as heck because

Sadaf Beynon (12:06)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (12:16)

He wasn't building the space in, which obviously you can take out some of that in post-production. his pacing was bad. He was talking over the person. I mean, there were just like tick, tick, tick, all of these things. And he was like, wow, I thought this was just going to be just like speaking. And I was like, no, not at all. No, the charisma component of it. He was really good. I mean, he's an amazingly magnetic person, very excited, very, very smart. But technique wise, he was basically a neophyte.

Sadaf Beynon (12:33)

No.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So how do you, how do you help people practice without actually being on the podcast or is, or is that how they practice?

Matt Halloran (12:54)

we just.

Well, part of it is that it's game time, right? I mean, it's time to step up to the mic and get your show ready. But we do test recordings. We actually have them. We have professional producers that all of our clients have, which are people who can either be a co-host of the show or just do the production. They'll help them warm up and make sure that they're ready. They do give them feedback after the show. But a lot of it, we really try to take care of on the front. And after we do some test recordings, we've done enough of these now.

Sadaf Beynon (12:58)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (13:23)

where I know what your issues are going to be very quickly. I mean, it's not me. I've got a team of 32 people behind me. But my team really does know how to just make little course corrections, right, to make it so that they're going to be even better behind the mic. What do you do?

Sadaf Beynon (13:28)

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Podjunction is actually similar to what you do, but you're in the space of finance services, aren't you? We help business leaders, entrepreneurs, founders, coaches, whoever it is that would like to use a podcast to help them grow their business, so use it as a marketing tool, so see it as the marketing arm of their business.

Matt Halloran (14:05)

So do you do do something like the atomic content method and do you do coaching to help them get better behind the microphone?

Sadaf Beynon (14:12)

Yes, we do. We do do that. also, we don't call it the atomic content method, but I love that name. But yeah, we like to, as you said, I mean, there's so much content there. You know, you have an hour of speaking and to be able to take that and to be able to slice it and dice it in different ways and for different platforms. And depending on how people like to consume information, make that available to them. think, you know, there's so many different ways you can go with a podcast.

Matt Halloran (14:29)

Mm-hmm.

Sadaf Beynon (14:42)

And I think it's just gold in the sense of content. Obviously making sure you've got the right guest and the right conversation so that you're being able to use that to direct it to the right people, to your audience. And then yes, also helping them, as you say, get confident behind the mic and helping them see how they can use that to their advantage. How like the charisma.

Matt Halloran (14:51)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon (15:10)

I think in some sense you need that. can't, you know, I mean, all of it comes with practice. It all comes with practice. Sometimes you have a lot of charisma, but as soon as you're in front of the mic, you lose it. So you gotta, you gotta get the balance right in all of those things.

Matt Halloran (15:20)

Thank

Sadaf Beynon (15:28)

Yeah. Can I ask how do you help people who are really like on the edge of saying, okay, yes, I want to do a podcast, but haven't quite said yes and haven't quite jumped in? Do you do you deal with with people like that as well? And how do you help?

Matt Halloran (15:50)

But I do all the sales here. So I do it all the time, to be really honest. One of the things that so one of the things I think is really, really important during the should I start a podcast process is having realistic expectations. And so a lot of people just think that they can get behind the microphone. They're going to do 10 episodes and they're going to make a whole bunch of money. And that's not the world you and I live in. Right. I mean,

Sadaf Beynon (15:52)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (16:18)

Even if you have the greatest show in the world, which there are a lot of shows out there, it's hard to get noticed unless you're doing something fundamental, unique and different. I mean, you can throw a bunch of money at it or things like that to try to go ahead and promote it. But we know that it's about an 18 to 24 month cycle before you really start being able to quantify your spend on your podcast. And so for a lot of people, that just turns them off.

Sadaf Beynon (16:46)

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (16:46)

right? They're like, No, I you know, I

need new clients today. Okay, well, by leads, then, right, go to BNI, go to networking groups, you know, kind of, you know, try, there's other things you can do. In our industry, it's, you know, doing, you know, educational workshops or dinner seminars. That's a quick way to go ahead and, you know, get it get more people in your pipeline. But that's a that's a really bad hamster wheel to get on. It's a really bad treadmill, because then you have to constantly be feeding the beast, where

Sadaf Beynon (16:50)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (17:14)

in content marketing, which is what you and I both do, it really is a long tail, but you're building a strong foundation and we call it escape velocity that after you have enough in the can, it's just, it becomes so much easier and you actually create fans. So we have a thing called the influence continuum and most people are talking to skeptics, but when you have a good podcast and you've got a bunch of podcasts for people to consume, they know who you are.

Sadaf Beynon (17:17)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (17:42)

Right.

You know, I mean, they like what you do. They come in. They're almost pre sold, which is basically most of our system here at Proud Mouth. I'm considered the podcasting guy in financial services. I've been I've been working on that since 2017. But. So most people who are coming in aren't really necessarily on the fence of if they want to do a podcast, it's if they have the right expectations for what the podcast and all of the content marketing that we do at Proud Mouth can do for

Sadaf Beynon (17:55)

Hmm.

Right.

Yeah, that's interesting. What you're talking about is the authority and the credibility that comes with having a podcast over time. Matt, think you and I both know that the success in podcasting isn't always about the numbers. It's not about the downloads, as you were referring to just then.

Actually, to be honest, there's a lot of podcasts that have very small audiences, but they're able to, but the podcast is doing really, really well and is being able to achieve a lot. So what would you say are some of the signs that you look for that tell you that a podcast is really working for someone?

Matt Halloran (18:58)

Well, so there's a lot of tangible and intangible aspects of podcasting or content creation specifically. I think the number one thing that people need to understand is this is an art form and you shouldn't question your art, right? You know, when you walk into your office, you don't look at the painting and say, you haven't gotten me any new clients this month, right? You just don't do that, right? The content itself has value.

Sadaf Beynon (19:18)

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (19:23)

If I go to your website, which I did, of course, by the way, and I look at all of your testimonials and look at all the shows that you've gotten in the can, and then I look at somebody else who has one or two podcasts in the can, you're 10 times more credible, in my opinion, because you've been doing this longer, you've been putting in the work, and you've been giving me a lot of value for free. And that's the world that we live in. We live in the world of being able to give as much as you feel comfortable away for free, so that people will potentially buy your services. So that's number one.

Sadaf Beynon (19:43)

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (19:52)

Number two, I know that we both work with business owners, client retention and client communication is not quantifiable. Besides the volume of it. And we all know that it's, you know, 10 times less to maintain an existing client than it is to get a new client. So client retention in our industry and financial services. 75 just came out from a study from a group of ours, the Friends of Arts are called Y charts.

that said 75 % of clients are one bad piece of communication away from leaving their advisor. Or no communication, and it's usually no communication. so that's, no matter what your expertise is, if you're a coach, if you run a cement company, if you're a data analyst, it doesn't matter when you're creating content, maintaining that communication with existing clients is really, really huge.

Sadaf Beynon (20:28)

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (20:48)

Then you have the feel good stuff, right? Which is a client comes in and says, I loved your last show. And you're like, yay. I mean, that's a whole bunch of fun. This actually happened to a friend of mine. He was at the gym and he was on the treadmill and he had a phone call, which I don't know why you would answer the phone call at the gym. I kind of poked him in the eye about that. But he was talking to somebody on the phone and the person next to him said, man, I know your voice. Why do I know your voice? And he was like, I don't know, that's creepy. And he's like, my God, you run the blank show.

Sadaf Beynon (20:55)

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (21:17)

Yes, I do. He's like, I love that show. So, you know, that kind of celebrity component of it is pretty fun to lean into. But here's the other thing. If you do this correctly, you're going to potentially be able to sell new products to existing clients. And also, if you put in the time and work, you're going to get new business from this. And so, again, it really is perspective and setting those clear expectations on the front end for people who are

Sadaf Beynon (21:18)

Amazing.

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (21:47)

wanting to go down this journey. You said something too, and I'm going to digress just for a quick moment. You know, when people are on the fence, a lot of times when they're on the fence, they'll say, well, Matt, there's too many podcasts out there. And I'm sure that you deal with that, too. And I say, are there too many websites out there? They're like, what? It's like everybody's got a website, right? Yeah, I've got three of them. OK.

Sadaf Beynon (21:51)

That's fine.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Halloran (22:13)

Well, aren't there too many podcasts? And I'm like, you know, on the grand scheme of things? No, there are a lot of bad podcasts. There are a lot of podcasts that get like 10 views and that, know, you know, or just some old guy talking about something that nobody cares about because it's an ego stroke. That's not what we that's not what you do. And that's not what we do. We help create magnetic content that's going to get people to start paying attention to our clients.

Sadaf Beynon (22:19)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's great. What do you help or how do you help people stick to it? Because that's another thing, isn't it? Like, you know, I think I've heard different numbers, but some will say, you know, people don't even make it to the 20th episode because of all the work that it takes. So how do you get them through that?

Matt Halloran (22:46)

Ha ha.

Yeah, so the last research report I saw was eight podcasts. It's called Podfade. They've actually named it, which I think is funny because, whatever. yeah, you're so we make you stay a year. So first off, when you work with Proud Mouth, you're signing a year contract. That's it. Because because we know that that you have to commit to this and then you re up for another year. So we don't go month to month or

Sadaf Beynon (23:04)

Okay, yes.

Matt Halloran (23:27)

You know, it's nothing like that because you're plugging into a system. Everything that we give to our clients, my partner Kirk and I have done for ourselves. Every single solitary one of our nine podcasts, growth tactics, we've done for ourselves because I'm going to test it. I can tell you we had more than nine at one point and some of them just flat out didn't work. and so we, know, over all of these years, we've just been refining it and honing it and

making it so that it's easier for people to do.

Sadaf Beynon (23:59)

That's good. That's very good.

How do you find people perceiving your service, especially when you say you got to, you know, it's a 12 month, it's a 12 month program. This is what you're what you're getting. Because there is the there is a like there are people who will say, well, I can just go and YouTube it and I can figure things out for myself. How do you how do you?

offer something more, something different.

Matt Halloran (24:32)

I don't. I tell them to go try it and when they fail, give me a call. I mean, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but listen, you can do this on the cheap. You totally can. I mean, you don't even need to have real post-production or if you do, you can outsource it to Fiverr or there's all sorts of companies that can do that stuff for you. But you just have to realize that you get what you pay for, right? Do you want to go ahead and bootstrap your professional, let's say you're an attorney.

Sadaf Beynon (24:35)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (24:59)

writing, you want to start talking, you want to start a podcast. Okay, great. So you're an attorney, you probably make a pretty good living, right? So you start a podcast and you bootstrap it and you do it all by yourself. And then there's an attorney who's actually paying for your services and my services, high quality post production, editing, syndication to every major podcast player, know, great SEO optimized show notes, and then all of the other content that we create based off of the long form content. This attorney looks like a schmuck.

right? They look like they're doing this on the cheap and I don't think that that is a good look for you professionally. I really don't. And so if you are a professional, if you're an expert and you're trying to use your podcast as a client communication tool and grow your business and become a thought leader in your space, you need to spend some money to make sure that it looks great on the back end.

Sadaf Beynon (25:50)

Yeah. Amen. But let's change gears again a little bit. So what do you think is working well in the podcasting space?

Matt Halloran (25:53)

Hehehehehe

Yeah, video, video, video, video, video. I mean, it's just it's unbelievable. I don't understand it personally, and it's not just because I'm an old guy, it's because. I think watching a podcast is really boring now, unless it's something like smart lists, which I'd love to watch, but like my wife has been Amy Poehler got a new a new podcast out.

She's interviewing all of her friends, which is really cool. And I love Amy Poehler a whole bunch. But I don't need to see her. would rather listen for me. I would rather listen to the show. But but I'm the minority, I guess, because people are are all about watching watching podcasts, which which the advice on that is that means you have to step up your show. Right. And so when we moved to video here at Proud Mouth, you know, I've got this entire this is a real set behind me. I've got

five different lights that are all pointing in different directions because I wear glasses so that you don't see the big glare on my glasses. I still have some shading issues over here that I haven't been able to figure out, but you really do need to lean into video is what's working. The other thing is you can't have a monologue podcast. So we actually don't even produce those. I won't. We don't take you as a client if you're just going to try to talk for 27 to 30 minutes because unless you're a pro and even then if you look at like professional actors,

They don't do that. get they they they invite you know, interview people. And so we have a guesting system is a huge foundation of our of our program specifically.

Sadaf Beynon (27:41)

So can you tell me a bit more of why you don't go down the monologue route?

Matt Halloran (27:47)

Well, because most people suck. I mean, there's so much bad content out there. We don't want to produce bad content. So one of our sayings here is rise above the noise. Right. And so in a world in our world that's very noisy and you've got these huge people who are spending obscene amounts of money to get investors attention, you have to do something fundamentally unique and different. It's hyper personalized where you get your personality out into the marketplace and

Sadaf Beynon (27:53)

Mm-hmm.

Matt Halloran (28:14)

You also have the opportunity when you're interviewing somebody that they're basically endorsing your product and service because why else would they come to be a guest on your show? I was really excited to come on your show because I don't have a scarcity mindset. You and I are in a very, very similar space. We do basically the same thing. We have a different niches, right? But I love talking about this and I'm going to promote this show to my network because

Sadaf Beynon (28:40)

you

Matt Halloran (28:42)

There are people who might have a genuine connection with you who want to start a show. And there might be some people that you have that have a connection with my muppety self and might want to go ahead and use Proud Mouth. And so I think that's vitally important. And it's boring as hell, right? Just listening to the same person drone on for 30 minutes or longer, I don't care.

Sadaf Beynon (29:07)

Yeah. So it's not just that you might not be good at it. It's also that for the listener, it's not necessarily exciting.

Matt Halloran (29:17)

Well, and we do A-B testing here all the time, right? So we'll put this podcast up against this podcast in our system. early on, because we don't do this anymore, our monologue podcasts were getting three to 10 views, where our interview podcasts were getting 100 to 300 views, right? And so there's something there. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon (29:30)

You're welcome.

Mm-hmm.

Wow, that's really intriguing. What else do you think is working well? See you said video.

Matt Halloran (29:44)

having a really,

really strong guesting system. I think that you need to be really hyper organized, right? And so when somebody is going to be a guest on your show, you should generally have a pre record call to set clear expectations, talk about the show, talk about what you're going to talk about. Now, some people do this through email in forms. We personally we do it personally here. Like we'll set a 15 to 20 minute call with all of our guests for our new show that we're rolling out.

Sadaf Beynon (29:47)

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (30:14)

which called Rise Above the Noise that's gonna be coming out soon. Setting Expedition, I'm also listening for things. I'm listening for their go-to words, their cadence, their volume, their inflection, their pacing. I'm also checking to make sure that their audio is good and their video is good. I can't tell you how many times that I'll go in and half of the person's face is dark and the other one is really light because their lighting stinks. And so we address some of those sorts of things in the pre-record call.

We also send a video ahead of time that that tells the people you know, like like you did you did this, you know, make sure your notifications are turned off. You make sure that you're in a quiet space. Make sure you have something to drink just in case so you don't get you know, your mouth doesn't get all yucky. I talk about breathing and skin sound really corny. But I talked to people about not taking really shallow chesty breaths to take nice big deep diaphragm breaths. And then

Sadaf Beynon (30:58)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (31:12)

I get them to laugh before we start the podcast because a lot of people are nervous and their shoulders are up here and they look kind of dorky. So I get them to laugh and they drop their shoulders. And then the post after the recording is done, keeping in touch with your guests, tell them where you are in the process of post-production. And then when you're ready to share the podcast, that's when you deliver them a package so that they can share it to their audience too. I think that that system is a game changer for every single solitary business owner.

Sadaf Beynon (31:35)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Halloran (31:42)

when it comes to creating content to use your podcast as a beautiful networking opportunity. And as you know, when you interview somebody, it's a different conversation than sitting at a bar or a networking event and everybody's just talking at each other.

Sadaf Beynon (31:58)

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (32:01)

I have people who still come up to me today. We did 500 episodes of our other podcasts who will say, I was on episode 230 and I still feel like you know me better than a lot of people. So I like that. It made me feel good.

Sadaf Beynon (32:11)

wow. That's a compliment.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think also to your point about making that guest experience so rich, it's even more important when if your guest that you've got on the show is someone that you might want as a client.

So helping them to see what you do and get to know you as well as giving them the opportunity to share about themselves. It's quite a fine line, isn't it?

Matt Halloran (32:41)

It is. But when you can walk that line, that's when things really change. We had a client many, moons ago who they only worked with successful female CEOs in Boston. So that's all they interviewed. And they needed like two a year because they're very wealthy in financial services.

Sadaf Beynon (32:46)

Hmm.

Well, very nice, yeah.

Matt Halloran (33:09)

and they closed 50 % of their guests. So again, there's so much strategy that you can use this medium for, but a lot of people just go into a blind, it's like they have a bat and they're just like swinging around trying to hit what they want. We believe, and I know you have this process too, is to be very, very focused on who your ideal client is and how are we gonna get our content in front of

Sadaf Beynon (33:25)

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, that's very good. What do you think? I know you've talked about monologues. What else do you think doesn't work well in this space?

Matt Halloran (33:47)

I think if you're a host, you need to check your ego and sit back and realize that you should be talking like less than a quarter of the time. Like you have done, you ask very insightful questions. I can tell that you're listening to what I'm saying. By the fact that you're asking me really good questions, it actually makes me feel good, right? I'm gonna remember this.

All of that stuff is really important. A lot of people, especially in business, get behind the microphone and they think that the show's supposed to be all about them. We call it the sprinkle. I know it's a really technical thing, but you did this a little while ago, right? And so, and you did it incredibly well, which is, I had said something and then you had sprinkled in a little bit about who you are and what you do, which people are gonna notice that, right? Like, wow, she was really smooth with that. Because we're talking about,

effective podcasting, how do you do this? You do this for you're an expert, right? You do this for your clients all the time. And that's really what we have found is the most effective way because if you come on and you're like, and you start trying to sell right out of the gate, nobody's going to listen. So it's all about building relationships. And it's all about being a good interviewer. I also think this is going to sound really nerdy. But I love talking about this. You should have heroes. You should have interview heroes like people you want to emulate.

I do, I have people who I will pull out my Terry Gross every once in a while and I'll pull out my Oprah Winfrey technique or my Phil Donahue or my Larry King technique. And I actually know that well enough where different situations, I use different techniques while I'm interviewing people to make the interview even better. It isn't just about asking questions, it's about getting your client to hopefully have an epiphany.

on your show that they hadn't had previously, because your relationship is going to change forever if you can do that.

Sadaf Beynon (35:47)

Wow, that's really, really fascinating what you've said. So you're talking about the guest having that epiphany as you called it on the show, but it's that relationship building, isn't it? That if they can connect with you at that point, they're not going to forget that interview very quickly and they will come back to you in one way or another, whether it's as a client or a partner or something or some kind of networking opportunity will be there, which is so true actually. Like that's what Pajung.

It's not sorry, you're not podcasting is so good for that networking side of things. I also found what you said about the interview heroes that that's also really fascinating because I know when I first started, I emulated some of the people that I used to listen to the podcast host that I enjoyed listening to and thought, oh, that sounds really good. I really like the way they do this.

but I got to a point where it became more about, like less about emulating other people, but kind of having that confidence to use my own voice. So what would you say to that? Because you're also talking about like, you you are so much more experienced in podcasting than I am. You're so much farther down the road and you're talking about your interview heroes that you will bring in every now and then.

So what's the balance there?

Matt Halloran (37:18)

It's internalization. So you've already gotten there, right? So I still know technically what I'm doing, but it is Matt Halloran who's doing it. So I have internalized those techniques because each of them have something very, very specific that I like to draw on. so let's talk about Oprah very quickly. Oprah used to have people who would sit on her couch and say things they'd never said before.

And the reason why is because Oprah has this unbelievable ability to make the audience fade away. And so that is a very intentional thing that I try to do on every show is I want them to forget that there's a microphone. I want them to forget that there's a camera and we're just having a good conversation. So that's the Oprah Winfrey effect, right? And then you've got somebody like Terry Gross who does Fresh Air. She's done over, I don't know what it is, 20,000 recordings now or interviews, 10,000, something like that.

And there are times as the interviewer where you want to talk about something that you know about to put yourself not necessarily on par with the guests, but to make them understand that you understand what they're saying. And Terry's unbelievably good at that. And then you've got Larry King, Larry King who has famously never prepared for episodes.

I personally like to go into a lot of podcasts understanding who my guest is, but without any preconceived notions about who they are and what they're going to say because I like being a little bit more spry. then Phil Donahue is my other favoritest of favorites because he uses silence a lot. And I do that all the time when I'm interviewing somebody. I won't say anything because I know my guest is going to fill that space. And if you do that a couple of times,

You started here with this question and then they get way down here with this answer because you gave them the space to really find out where they wanted to go with it. And that's where those epiphanies happen. So that's why it's very, very intentional on what I do and what we teach our clients to do, because this is the skill that you have to hone. And if you're good at it, you can change everything.

Sadaf Beynon (39:23)

Hmm.

That's really cool.

Do you think podcasting works better for some industries than others?

Matt Halloran (39:45)

You know what? Yeah. Well, but so I just listened to your last episode with the guy who does like a long term care podcast. Who would have thought there was a long term care podcast, right? So so no, you you will find your tribe like pretty quickly. I met with one of our earliest clients was outside of financial services. And I don't know actually how they found us. This was really early on when Kirk and I started this, who ran a

Sadaf Beynon (39:45)

I know you're very niche at... Okay. Yes. Yes. I know.

Mm.

Matt Halloran (40:15)

a logistics company for vans in the United States so that you could track where your service vehicles were. And I'm like, what is this guy going to talk about? He did like 100 episodes all talking about logistics and he had a loyal fan base. So I do not think that there is anything off limits. In fact,

That's why we believe in the hyper focus niche component of this. And you said this earlier, you know, there are podcasts that get a hundred downloads, 500 downloads who are way more successful from a business building perspective than people who are getting 10,000.

Sadaf Beynon (40:55)

Yeah. that's right.

Thank you. Matt, we both help others with their podcast, setting it up, building, growing. What have you been learning about the medium lately?

Matt Halloran (40:57)

You're welcome.

Yeah, that the time changed. So this has been a very interesting thing is Libsyn, Libsyn, yeah, Libsyn and then, I just can't believe I can't remember. can see Triton, which are the two big research companies in podcasting said that the, so the ideal podcast length used to be 27 minutes. And we knew that, right? Because 75 % of people drop off after 27 minutes. And the reason why is because

Sadaf Beynon (41:34)

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (41:38)

It's about how long it takes people to commute. It's about how long people exercise before they have a heart attack. It's about how long it takes people to get ready in the morning and about how long it takes to cook a meal, right? Well, now it's between 17 and 27 minutes. So I think that's the big thing that has been really surprising to me is that people want shorter podcasts than they want longer podcasts. And as you know, most people are going in the other.

Sadaf Beynon (41:55)

you

That's really interesting. That's really interesting because you have some that are like, you know, an hour and a half to three hour long episodes as well. How do you hold those two things together?

Matt Halloran (42:17)

We don't. And I don't know if just because I don't have the patience for that. But it's

and I think a lot of people. So what we think you should do. So if you have a three hour topic, we tell we we tell our clients to put it into a miniseries. So a three hour topic would be, you know, six, seven part, you know, miniseries so that people know that there is a it's an end so that they can breathe.

Sadaf Beynon (42:24)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Okay.

Mm. Mm.

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (42:44)

I don't understand the super long podcasts. never really have gotten.

Sadaf Beynon (42:49)

Yeah, I have tried to like listening as well, but it takes me a long time to get through it. Just because as you say, like, you know, the commuting time, the cooking time, those kinds of things definitely come into play. Where do you think podcasting is heading as far as when it comes to building trust, visibility, that kind of thing?

Matt Halloran (43:13)

I think the ship has left. I think that we know where podcasting, I mean, with the inception of video and including the video into the podcast now, I think that we're going to be here for quite a while. There are some people who are saying that, you podcasting is going to turn more into live streaming. My friends of mine who live stream, the level of traction that they get is very little.

Sadaf Beynon (43:16)

Mm.

Hmm.

Matt Halloran (43:43)

because of the success of video gamers and the other live streamers that are on like Twitch and all of those sorts of things. I don't necessarily know if this medium is going to go there, at least not with the generation of people who are podcasting now, but future. I think live streaming is going to be really big potentially. I'm sure that there's going to be virtual stuff as soon as we are able to get into artificial reality a little bit more aggressively. I also think that people are going to start leaning more into

Sadaf Beynon (43:47)

We're gonna it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt Halloran (44:11)

better ads. Most ads are horrible on podcasts. And I think we need to change that monetization game. We don't have any of our clients monetized because they're using their podcast to build their business. But people who are into the monetization game, they'll just take anybody who will write them a check and the commercials are too long and they suck. And I think that's going to change a lot too.

Sadaf Beynon (44:26)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm. I was going to ask you what you thought makes a ad, but I'm guessing it's the length and yeah. Hmm. That's interesting. Yeah. Like you, don't, we don't do the ads either. Yeah.

Matt Halloran (44:44)

Host read 15 seconds or less. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon (44:55)

So Matt, if someone's listening and wondering could podcasting really work for me, what would you say to them?

Matt Halloran (45:01)

Absolutely. Just realize that it's a show and you have to be ready and willing and excited about putting on a show. And if you're interested in doing that, this is a wonderful medium for you. Even if you don't want to be on camera, you can still do audio only podcasts. And some of those are still very, very successful. But also try to use your content to make more content instead of just

Sadaf Beynon (45:09)

Ready?

Matt Halloran (45:28)

putting out a podcast and thinking that that's gonna do the heavy lift for you, because it's not.

Sadaf Beynon (45:32)

Yeah,

yeah, there's so much room for creativity with that, isn't there? Yeah. Matt, this has been such a fun conversation. I've really enjoyed it.

Matt Halloran (45:36)

Hmm?

I love, I'm sure your listeners will notice, I really love talking about this stuff. It's like my happy place. So I really appreciate the opportunity.

Sadaf Beynon (45:55)

Awesome. If listeners want to learn more from you or about you, where can they go do that?

Matt Halloran (46:02)

So I'm very, very active on LinkedIn. I know that a lot of your guests say that. So you can follow me on LinkedIn. You can check out our company, ProudMouth.com. yeah, mean, really, LinkedIn is probably the best place to reach out because I actually do respond to every direct message that I get. And we're always, just like what you're doing, we're giving away so much good information to help you on your content marketing journey on those social media platforms. So follow us there.

Sadaf Beynon (46:12)

Yep.

Awesome. Thank you so much. All of those details will be found in the show description. If you're listening and you've been wondering whether podcasting is worth it, I hope this gives you a clear yes. So Matt, thank you again. It's been wonderful. Awesome. Well, that's it for today. Bye from Matt and from me, and I will see you next time.

Matt Halloran (46:34)

Thank you.

I appreciate being here.