The Podcast Mistake That Cost Him A Year of Growth | Scott McInnes

Scott McInnes: [00:00:00] I always looked at the podcast as being something that builds my credibility in the space that I work in. A funny thing happened about three weeks ago where I got, we got an email in through our website is Scott available to come and speak at our event, , a week on Tuesday, we had the briefing call the next week and I said, oh, by the way, where did you hear about me in terms of being a speaker? Because we had lots of other clients in that sector and I thought maybe they had just gotten talking to each other

and she said, no, I listened to your podcast. And that's, that's how I know about you.

Sadaf Beynon: Hey there, I'm Sadaf Beynon, and this is the Podjunction podcast, the show where business leaders share how they use podcasting to grow, connect, and build their brands. Today I am talking to Scott McInnes, founder of Inspiring Change and host of Building Better Cultures podcast. With over 20 years of experience, Scott has built his consultancy around one core belief that people are at the heart of business success.

Through his work in, in internal communication and employee engagement, and via his [00:01:00] podcast, Scott helps organizations communicate in a more authentic and human way. Scott, welcome to the show.

Scott McInnes: Hi, Sadaf, nice to be here. Thanks so much. And as I'm sure many of your other guests have said, how weird it is to be on the other side of the microphone.

Sadaf Beynon: Yes, absolutely. Scott, you help organizations speak more human. How did launching a podcast fit into that mission?

Scott McInnes: I think it was really interesting that it was probably to cast back to 2018 when the first, uh, when the first episode went out. With Mary Davis, who is the, the, the global CEO of Special Olympics.

And it was a friend of mine, uh, who said to me, you're really good at talking. You should do a podcast. And I said, but surely listening is a, is a better quality for, uh, for podcast hosts. And he said, no, just, you know, it's fine. Um, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll pick it up as you go. And I think for me it's, there's a couple of things.

You know, how, how do we help people be more human? I think one, the conversations that we have and the tone that we have in those conversations where we can take ideas, you know, in [00:02:00] the space that we are in, which is kind of HR leadership, organizational culture, and we can make them a little bit more real and a little bit more human perhaps by asking guests to explain things in a way that is a little bit clearer, a little bit more human, um, a little bit more, you know.

Kindergarten, if you like. Mm-hmm. Um, and help people to really grasp hold of those concepts and, and why they're important. Um, and I think then also being able to take guests and, and allow them explain what they do and how they do it. Again, helping people to see that oh, but the change that they want to maybe make happen in my organization.

Okay. That feels okay. That feels better. It feels okay. Something that I was worried about, whereas now maybe I'm not quite so worried.

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. Yeah, that's, that's cool. Was your, , podcast , a strategic move or did it evolve organically?

Scott McInnes: Uh, definitely the latter. Okay. And, and still definitely evolving organically.

It's, um, it's one of those I like, I I, I never set out, as I said, it was my, a pal of mine jazz, who said you should do a [00:03:00] podcast. And that literally was about as much thought. Went into it. Okay. I went out and bought one of those little Zoom boxes. I had two lapel mics. Yeah. I went out and, and I went to Mary Davis's house, the first guest.

She lives around the corner from me. Here in Dublin. Yeah. And, and, and we just, we just cracked on. Hmm. Um, I should remember, I remember sometime after that I saw a thing that said. If you don't cringe when you listen back to your earlier episodes, then you're not working hard enough. And I tell you what, when I listened back to Mary Davis's episode and go and have everyone go and have a listen, and please don't judge me.

I was only new. I didn't know what I was doing. At one point, you can actually hear me eating a biscuit. Which is

Sadaf Beynon: shocking. Love it. At

Scott McInnes: least

Sadaf Beynon: you were relaxed

Scott McInnes: and hu Yeah. Listen, if you want a human podcast, there it is. I was drinking tea and eating biscuits while Mary was talking. Um, but so, so no, it wasn't particularly strategic.

It was just a Sure. Let's, let's do this. Have a bit of crack, have a bit of fun and, and we'll see where it goes.

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. So how does now [00:04:00] then, how does your podcast feed into your client work?

Scott McInnes: So I think it's really interesting and. Actually, it's really interesting 'cause um, so we, we, back in the early days of the company, so around 2018 was when the, the business was just starting.

Of course, in those early days, you maybe haven't got as much client work, certainly as we have today, thankfully. Um, so there was time to do a little bit more podcasting. So maybe we were going out fortnightly. Mm-hmm. So I was going out, finding guests, doing discovery, recording the episodes. I was doing everything myself.

I was doing the audio, I was typing up show notes. I was doing all the digital, yeah. I was doing everything. Probably because it's slightly, 'cause I had the time. Mm-hmm. Uh, whereas now I, all I do is turn up to do the discovery calls and, and turn up to do the, the interviews and then hand it off to the team to, to do all the other work.

Um. It's been really interesting that probably one of the things that I held really close to me, maybe wrongly, was that because the podcast was kinda sitting alongside my business, that I didn't want the podcast to feel like it was a big advert for the business. I didn't [00:05:00] want it to feel like that was what, that was the only reason I was doing it.

So I probably, I. The pendulum, I think maybe swung too far the other way. Mm-hmm. Where we didn't really talk about what we did. We didn't talk about how we did it. Whereas now what we've done is we've started to feed in, we're, we're eight years older, so we've started to feed in actually some of our clients, for example, I.

So let's have a client like the Cumberland come on and talk about how we help them with corporate narrative and the difference that made during change. Let's have the police service of Northern Ireland come on and talk to us about how they did their, or why and how they did their culture audit, which we ran for them.

And I'm always very upfront. And I'm always very transparent and I always say, you know, these are clients of ours. Let's use some of our, you know, we have a really, really nice pool of associates that we work with. Let's bring in that, let's bring them in and, and celebrate their expertise. And celebrate their success and let them introduce themselves.

So, and maybe somebody listening if they end up being a client, they've heard the person's voice already. So I've probably become a little bit more, I [00:06:00] I've brought the two a little closer together. Mm-hmm. The podcast and the, and the, the business were very far apart. They're probably, if they were a Venn diagram

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah.

Scott McInnes: They're very slightly lapping over now. Yeah. And that's okay. And I'm, and I'm comfortable with that and mm-hmm. Maybe I need to go more down that route. I dunno.

Sadaf Beynon: Okay. So in those, in those early days when you weren't, when you were kind of keeping the two things separate mm-hmm. What did that achieve for your business?

In some sense, I'm wondering if it would've still built that authority and that thought leadership.

Scott McInnes: If I'd have brought more client stuff in earlier.

Sadaf Beynon: No, I mean like even though it was standing alone almost in some sense, but that it would've been a similar. Thread, would it not?

Scott McInnes: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I, I, I think that the, uh, from a marketing perspective, I think bringing in some of the client stuff is a little bit better now.

Yeah. From a thought leadership perspective, I think it's always, it's always offered that. Mm-hmm. And I remember when I set the business up [00:07:00] in 2017, my coach said to me, if you want to be successful, you've gotta be an inch wide and a mile deep.

Sadaf Beynon: I like that.

Scott McInnes: And I really hold, and I think that's, that's, that's as true in the world of podcasts.

Yeah. Do not try and be everything to everybody. And, and that's something that I hold really kind of dear to my heart in my business. Mm. And in the podcast, the podcast is about leadership, communications, and culture. If you don't talk about those things, you don't get past, you know, you don't get you, you don't get past step one.

Um, which is us going through our clients that our, our guest offers that are coming in and just going, no, no, no, no, no. Because they're not relevant. Mm-hmm. Because I think that when people start to listen to your podcast, they're expecting to hear, you know, when they listen to your podcast, they're coming with an expectation of, if I do a podcast for my business, what's that gonna do for me?

Yeah, that's the question they want answered, and that's the question that you have to then answer through interviews like this. Mm-hmm. And I think that's really important when it comes to the [00:08:00] podcast and the brand. Or my business. And the brand. Yeah. What do people expect when they come and knock on the door?

Hmm. And the door opens. What, what are they expecting to see and is that their.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. So when you started bringing the two closer together, you're saying if you had a Venn diagram, there would be more of an overlap. Have you seen, um, the benefits of that in your business?

Scott McInnes: I think it's, you know what, it's, it's the one, and somebody only asked me the question this morning, do you think the podcast makes you money?

Do you think it brings in business? And I said, like, like, kind of lots of marketing efforts. It's really hard to know. It's really, really hard to know. I always looked at the podcast as being something that builds my credibility in the space that I work in. Mm-hmm. Back to your point about thought leadership, that maybe Yeah.

Kind of maybe positions me and the company as, as kind of a thought leader in that space of communications, of culture, of leadership, and. And I think it does do that. I think trying to measure [00:09:00] have we won any work from it is really hard. Although it was funny. I did, I did say to the person I had the call with this morning that a funny thing happened about three weeks ago where I got, we got an email in through our website is Scott available to come and speak at our event, um, a week on Tuesday, um, in Athlon, which is about 90 minutes away from Dublin, um, right in the middle of Ireland.

And we were really busy and I said, yeah. Just, okay. Just say yes. And we had the briefing call the next week and very, very nice bunch. And I said, oh, by the way, where did you hear about me in terms of being a speaker? Mm-hmm. Um, because we had lots of other clients in that sector and I thought maybe they had just gotten talking to each other as, as happens in Ireland.

And she said, no, I listened to your podcast. And that's, that's how I know about you. Yeah. So suddenly there was a piece of work mm-hmm. That had come directly from the podcast and maybe other pieces have too. Um, I probably just haven't asked the question, and maybe I should have and maybe I will from now on.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, I mean that's, that's such a win, isn't it? That someone, when they [00:10:00] listen to your podcast and then, you know, however long it takes for them to actually come to your door and ask and, and want to do business with you is a different thing. But actually the fact that they listen and slowly over time gain that.

Trusting you.

Scott McInnes: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it is that idea that, you know, the a a client, you know, we've done about 135 episodes now. We've just moved to a series model. So we've, we've done a series or a season in January, may, and we'll do another one in September.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm.

Scott McInnes: That person might not want you right then.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah,

Scott McInnes: they might not have wanted me in 20, you know, 2019 when they started listening to the podcast. Mm-hmm. But they may have been an avid listener. And then somebody walks into their office and says to, you know, says to the listener, we need to do some work on our culture. Do you know anybody? Well actually, yeah, there's this guy on this here.

Haven't listened to this. 'cause this is really interesting.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm.

Scott McInnes: And there you go. So you're, you know, you're front of mind for them and, and at least you're in their thoughts. And that's really important. [00:11:00]

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, absolutely. Um, Scott, if you don't mind, I'd love to go back to what you said at the beginning when your friend said to you, you know, you should have a podcast 'cause you're great at talking.

And you went back with, well, shouldn't you be a good listener? I'd love to know a little bit more about what you think about that now that you are hosting. What do you think that, um, divide needs to look like? How much do you talk, how much do you listen?

Scott McInnes: I, you know, I, I do a lot of facilitation work and I, and I work with a lot of senior leader groups, and my job is to facilitate a conversation.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm.

Scott McInnes: It, and I will jump in occasionally with some thought. You know, I may ask a question, they'll say, you know, their answer and I might jump in with, oh, actually it's really interesting you mentioned that because in my experience, we also would do X, Y, and Z, or I've also seen X, Y, and Z working elsewhere.

My job as a podcast host is to make the guest feel really comfortable. Um, we, we pre-brief them with some questions beforehand. I can, I can talk about that in a little minute if you like, in terms of our approach. Mm-hmm. But [00:12:00] then it's just to facilitate the conversation. And I remember, uh, somebody slipped in, uh.

Sorry. Somebody said to me, you know, it, it, it just sounds like you were having a conversation over a coffee with the person and somebody slipped in a mic and just recorded what you were talking about. And that is exactly the vibe. Yeah. That I want. I've listened to podcasts where the person, the person, you know, the, the, the, the host is saying.

Right. Well, question one. Dah, dah, dah. Okay. Onto our next question. Question two. Yeah. And I'm like, oh my God, it just sounds so staccato and horrible. Mm-hmm. And suddenly like an interview instead of like a conversation. And I think that when you think about that humanity, what people really want is two people having a nice conversation.

Yeah. And that's, that's what they want to hear. And that's what, certainly, that's what I try and curate when, when we're doing the work that we do. Back to your actual question before I went off on that ramble. What do I think the balance should be? Probably 70 30 in favor of the guest, [00:13:00] if not a little higher in favor of the guest because they're the one with the knowledge.

I think back to that point about the, the kind of using it as a little bit more of a marketing vehicle for the company. I think that if you're going down that route, what you then start to do is you start to introduce in little nuggets of. I probably have started doing this little nuggets of Oh, interesting.

You should make that point. 'cause we did that with one of our clients on our project recently. Yeah. So you're not being very, very, you're not going into it in great detail. You're not taking over the podcast from the guest, but you're simply saying, oh, cultural audits. Oh yeah, we've done them for Yeah. 15 or 20 different organizations.

And it's really interesting 'cause people still see that you can't measure culture. That's bs because you can, and we do, you can, and it works really well, really, really well. Mm-hmm. And I might go that far, but no, I think a 70 30, 80 20 split in favor of the guest is, um, is really important. And actually one final thing.

Mm-hmm. Even what you did there, you know, [00:14:00] going back to what you said there, back at the top about the Venn diagram. I we're on video for people listening. I saw, I saw you write that down. You scribbled that down beside you. And I do that too so that I, 'cause I'm never gonna be able to think, listen to what they're saying, be engaged, think about the next question, and remember everything they've spoken about already.

Mm-hmm. So I'm always taking down little notes so I can do that. Jump back as well. Yeah. And that's, that comes back to that active listening piece that you spoke about.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Thank you. I think you're so right that that 80 20, 70 30 split, I think is, is actually works very well. And how you were saying, just say a little bit.

I had an, I had a guest on uh, Matt Halloran. Mm-hmm. And he called it sprinkling You sprinkle a little bit of your expertise in rather than, you know. Full fledged. Um, this is what we do, this is how we do things. This is our experience then, and give the floor to the guests primarily.

Scott McInnes: Totally. And weird you should mention Matt, because, uh, uh, a friend of ours actually works in his company in Canada.

Sadaf Beynon: No way. So

Scott McInnes: that's random. I love that. The world, the world is [00:15:00] literally a village. There you go.

Sadaf Beynon: That's wonderful. Um. Yeah. So I, yeah. You were talking about your approach. You touched on your approach. I'd love for you to go into that a bit more.

Scott McInnes: Yeah. So I, you know, for me, well, one thing is getting the right guests.

Hmm. You know, our, our, our listeners. Your listeners, my listeners, and anybody who's listening to this, who has a podcast, our listeners have an expectation, as I said, of what we're going to be talking about. That's why they listen to the podcast. You know, first of all, for me, we, we, we used to get lots and lots.

In fact, we still do get lots and lots of inbound. Hey, wanna, you know, can we put so and so on your podcast? Can we put so and so on your podcast or so whoever, whoever the hell it is, doctor this with this model or this book, or this, this stadium tour, or whatever it might be. And so I go through, I'll go through those.

And look and I decide whether or not, I think they are somebody that should be on the pod. Probably last year, the year before, I was letting that dictate. Yeah, for me, too much who I was bringing on. And that was kind of moving the direction of the podcast a little too much. This year [00:16:00] I've come back and I'm like, no, no.

I'm in charge. So what you'll find is in this season that's just happened right now. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's currently the start of, uh, start of June in 2025. Um, if you look at where we are today in the podcast, it's been all Irish, primarily Irish or UK guests.

Sadaf Beynon: Okay. We

Scott McInnes: were getting lots of American guests, lots of international guests.

Mm-hmm. And that's really interesting for a bit of flavor. Yeah, but you don't want it to be the main course. Mm. Um, you know, I, I, I'd much prefer to stick slightly closer to home, so I think choosing the guests well, and then I always have a discovery call. Yeah. And even after that discovery call, as ick as it sometimes is

Sadaf Beynon: mm-hmm.

Scott McInnes: I sometimes have to say, I don't think you're for us.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah,

Scott McInnes: I, I, thanks a million for your time. Really enjoyed the conversation, but actually I don't think that what you're gonna talk about is something that would really float our, our listeners' boats. Mm-hmm. And that's hard. Um, but what that discovery call then allows me to do, assuming we're bringing the person forward, is think about everything they've told me, what [00:17:00] questions do I need to ask them to elicit that information.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm. So

Scott McInnes: I will then send them. 6, 7, 8 questions with a caveat that we may not get to them all. Yeah. And I may throw in some spin balls occasionally, so be on your toes. But we, you know, this is kind of the, the roughly narrative flow of, of the episode that gives them. Just a bit of confidence because there's nothing worse than getting in a really good guest on your show, peppering them with random questions about their subject matter and expecting them on the spot in the moment to have an answer and, and, and not just have an answer, but to have a really good answer.

Sadaf Beynon: Compelling, yeah.

Scott McInnes: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So you are right. So the question then is how, how do we. Prep our, um, how do we prep our guests in order to be amazing? Yeah. 'cause that's what we want. I don't, you know, a guest is coming on to a podcast for a reason. You know, I'm coming onto your podcast. 'cause I think that perhaps it would help people, but also because I think it might help to grow.

My podcast listenership. Mm-hmm.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm.

Scott McInnes: People might be coming onto my [00:18:00] podcast 'cause they think if someone listens to this, they might buy their book. Yeah. Or go to their show, or listen to their podcast, or whatever it might be.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm.

Scott McInnes: If they're giving their time to us as podcasters, then we've gotta give them the opportunity to really shine.

Yeah. And I think that prep is what helps them really shine. The other thing that I ask them for is a really good photo. So I will always say to them, and we give them specs. Yeah. Okay. Do not send me something which is 117 K 'cause it's going to be rubbish. Do not give me something that's really, really close up.

'cause in the podcast artwork, it's gonna look rubbish. Yeah. And by the way, if you think that you've got a really good mic in your laptop, you haven't, you've got a rubbish mic in your laptop when it comes to podcasting, because podcasting lives and dies on audio. And, and, and that's just the end of it. So stick on a headset, stick on the, the, you know, the AirPods or stick on the, the wired connection to your old iPhone, but don't think that your laptop mic is gonna be good enough.

'cause it just isn't.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. That's really helpful. Thank you for that. Um, just what you were saying about, you know, how you changed your approach a little bit with your [00:19:00] guests. What has been the outcome of that? Has that had any, um. Direct impact again, on the business side of things. How, how have you found that?

Scott McInnes: Yeah, it's a good question. And again, I, I don't know. I mean, I, I, that client that came and said, you know, well, I listen to your podcast, I think you're great. Is that because I was chatting to more Irish guests? Is that because, and it was an Irish company. Uh, does she then kind of twig and go, oh, he must be ba he, he sounds foreign.

Which I am. I've lived here for 25 years, but I'm from, uh, I'm from Scotland originally. Um, but you know, she says, well, he, maybe he's, maybe if he's in Ireland. He sounds good. Maybe we could get him. So maybe that change of, of tactic into using more local, uh, organizations and, and more local guests is working.

And the other thing as well is that of course, from a business perspective as well as perhaps building up that credibility and that thought leadership. Mm-hmm. You are also building up a wealth of content.

Sadaf Beynon: Yes.

Scott McInnes: So we've now got 130 episodes ish of, of the, the kind of the [00:20:00] main podcast. Mm-hmm. And then I have another little thing on the side called BBC shorts, which is just me talking for five minutes, maybe about a particular, something that struck me in that day or something that struck me in that moment, or mm-hmm.

Just something poignant at, at that moment in time or. Poignant in, in my head. Um, but it means that you have a whole load of, of content there, of marketing content to be able to use, whether that's taking those podcasts. And if, if anybody looks at my, my LinkedIn profile, um, you'll see that we, we take little snippets from the pods and we'll, we'll actually revisit pods and we'll take them out and make a little carousel of, you know, key points that were made in the podcast.

But we'll do that months and months and months after. The initial pod. 'cause it's not a once and done No, we don't get the, we don't get the thing, you know, recorded, released, and then we never think about it ever again. Yeah. We use it often. And, and even the other day I was, we were doing a, a bit of a, a bit of a, a marketing campaign into a new sector and we were saying, oh by the way, we're working with organizations like you.

Here's a podcast [00:21:00] and here's a case study of that organization. Yeah. And that's really powerful.

Sadaf Beynon: That's very powerful. Indeed. Yes. No, that's very good. Um, I, I really, uh, I really understand what you mean by take. It's not just a one and done. It's, you know, over time keep putting that content out. I find personally when I do that, I.

I am reminded sometimes, 'cause you do so many podcasts. Right. You know what that's like. And um, to go back to some of those things that I've, I know I've heard before, and, um, to be able to look at them from maybe a different lens is I find really helpful. Yeah. I, I learn so much from my guests. I really do.

Scott McInnes: Yeah, definitely. And, you know, we learn, listeners learn. Um, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's powerful stuff. Again, it's, it's just two humans having a conversation. Right?

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Yeah. And I also really liked what you said about prepping your guest to be able to, you know, present their, their expertise in the best way possible because it reflects well on them and it reflects well on your content coming out later, plus [00:22:00] your podcast.

So it's a win-win. Definitely. Yeah.

Scott McInnes: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think there's no point in them coming on and being half as good as they could have been. Yeah. You know, you never want to get to the end of a podcast and the guest says, I wish I'd said this, or I should said that, or I wish I'd said. And look, the bottom line is also.

Not all podcast guests prep. Yeah. There's only so much, there's, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make a drink. That's right. And there's only so much you can do and mm-hmm. It's, it's up to that, you know, I'm giving them every opportunity to be amazing. Mm-hmm. I'm there simply to facilitate them looking good.

Really. Mm-hmm. And it's up to them to have the answers, to have thought beforehand, to have taken some notes, to come with something prepped if they want to, if that's the way they work. Um, and, and of course others at the other end of the spectrum. Can just turn up and just talk and it'd be absolutely fine.

There's lots of people in the middle, I think. Yeah. And they're the ones that maybe need to do a little bit or a lot of work beforehand.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Scott, I'm curious, what are some unexpected doors that the podcast has opened [00:23:00] for you?

Scott McInnes: I think it's funny that you know some of the people that you would meet, um.

The, there are certainly, there are people that I've had on the podcast where people will, people say to me, well, how much does that cost you to get him or her on? And I'm like, nothing. I just sent them a LinkedIn and said, I, I do this, this podcast. Do you fancy coming on? Um, Keith listeners may or, or may not know Keith Barry.

Um, he's a, he's, he's a fairly famous, um, Darren, he probably Darren Brown in the uk. Mm-hmm. The, the magician and hypnotist. He's like an, an, I guess an Irish version is Irish. Yeah. Yeah. And, um. He is amazing and I just sent him a LinkedIn and said, you seem to be doing more in the corporate space. Do you fancy coming on the podcast?

And the answer was yes. In fact, no. The answer wasn't yes. The answer was send an email to my pa.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. And

Scott McInnes: then I expected the answer was gonna be, uh, no chance. Or, yeah, sure you can for five grand. But actually, yeah, it was neither of those things. Mm. And what was really interesting was that he did have to, actually, we did those, so we did two episodes in this series, [00:24:00] uh, live.

With an audience. Hmm. So we had about 35, a little, a little, uh, a little event in our offices. Brought in a sound guy. He did all the sound, three mics, one for us and one for the audience. Um, we did a bit of q and a at the end, but he did have to come from his house, which took him an hour and a half. Yeah.

So he did have to, yeah. So he did have to invest. Yeah. And, and we did a couple of episodes like that, which was a, a really, really nice little event. But, you know, it's opened doors into people as that I would never thought that I would've met a lady's Irish rugby captain. Mm-hmm. Jamie Heaslip plays rugby for Ireland.

Um, a senator and former retail mogul. Really famous Fergal Quinn. Very nice guy. Umhmm, but it just does open doors. You know, you're, you're, you're giving. Somebody else, the opportunity to come and tell their story, to share their thoughts and ideas, to share their experiences. And that could be a really powerful thing.

And it's actually, it means the door, it might be shut, but it isn't, maybe isn't locked tight. Yeah. That if we knock, chances are they're probably gonna open it and let us in. So

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. No, that's, that's really [00:25:00] cool. I really like that. I think that's something about podcasting. It can. It can take a while for it to really get going and for you to see the full benefit of it.

Hmm. But that part that you are, that piece that you are talking about, the networking and opening doors to different people, I think that can happen from day one, almost from your first guest. Yeah. And I think that is, that is really incredible.

Scott McInnes: It's certainly, it, it's a funny one because it's a little bit, you know, starting a new podcast is kind of like starting a new business where, you know, when, when you've got, so we've in the business now, we've got a really, really solid client list.

So when I go out and I say, well, we work with clients like this, why wouldn't you work with us? They go, Hmm. Yeah, maybe we should have a conversation then. Hmm. It's the same as the, the podcast is the same, you know, we've had X, Y, and Z on the podcast and you pick three or four people Yeah. That are in their sector and they go, oh, well if they've been on then, you know, maybe I should go on.

Yeah. Or you know, Jamie Heaslip has been on, or Stuart Lancaster has been on, or Fergal Quinn has been on, and these are names that people know. So they're going, oh, okay. He's Keith Barry. Oh geez. He was on. Okay, fine. [00:26:00] And you know, that means that you've got, you've got basically, I suppose, the social capital, if you like to be able to say to people, you know, well, if they've come on.

Why wouldn't you come on?

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah.

Scott McInnes: You know? Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: Um, Scott, that just reminded me of something you said earlier about your approach to guests, sourcing guests. Mm. So first, um, in the early days, it was very much about being dictated by the ones that were coming in to you, and then you, you changed your strategy.

Yeah. So, sorry, just wanna go back on that based on what you've said now. So are you doing a lot of the outreach yourself? Is that how it works? So I'll,

Scott McInnes: I'll sit down for each season now and think about, you know, is there a, is there somebody that we've, we we're on quite a lot of events and we partner up with companies, so I see lots of speakers and, you know, um, er, Marin from HubSpot was one.

That was at an event I was at quite recently, and I just, again, just got in touch and said, Hey, I saw you speaking at the event. I thought you were brilliant. I'd love to, to share some of your thoughts on the podcast. Do you wanna come in? So, you know, when you talk about [00:27:00] outreach, yes it is outreach, but it's not, you know, I don't sit there pouring over, you know, copies of the Irish Times or the Sunday Independent, or, you know, the Sunday Times looking for names.

I probably could, but I don't. Um, Ireland being quite a small place and, and being, you know, quite well connected, you tend to kind of know. The people. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, so they, they're out there and, and you know, if there's a couple of clients, I think like the PSNI as I said earlier, or the Cumberland that I mentioned, just going to them and saying, do you want chance coming on and telling your story about how you worked with us?

Yeah. And, and the difference it made. And, and I don't treat those, even though I know them really well from a podcast perspective, I don't treat those guests any different. Mm-hmm. To. A regular guest, if you came on my podcast and I, and I didn't know you, we still go through discovery. We still have the conversation.

We still think about the construct of the, of the conversation and what, what it is we want to pull out. Mm-hmm. And make sure that they're comfortable. That's really important.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. No, that's very good. Scott, what's something the podcast has helped you learn about your audience?

Scott McInnes: I think probably that they're all [00:28:00] really different.

Mm-hmm. Um, but that, I think the stuff that we talk about on the podcast is, is really relevant to everybody. You know, if you work in an organization, thinking about your organizational culture, thinking about how you communicate change and thinking about how you grow your leaders is really important. So everyone's got very, very similar.

Challenges, they may have them in different sectors or in different sizes. You know, clients of ours are all the way from 10,000 employees all the way down to, I think our smallest is probably 80 or 50. Yeah. Um, but they all, they all suffer the same challenges. Mm-hmm. So I think it's about realizing that when you.

When you're looking, again, back to that idea of that niche, that inch wide, mile deep.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah.

Scott McInnes: That's why we do that because we can now speak to people who are sharing those similar challenges, but yet what we're doing is over the course of having conversations with podcast guests or going through particular, um, projects with clients mm-hmm.

We're learning things all the time that we then take on and we can use in different client kind of different client [00:29:00] projects.

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. Yeah, that, that makes sense. When I look at, um, what, like, I, I think about my own podcast that I enjoy listening to. Not every single episode is gonna resonate with every, every person that's listening.

Scott McInnes: No, absolutely not. And because people, you know, if you, if, although we weren't really, actually, it's interesting that regards of where you're coming from. If you're an airline pilot, we've had one of those. If you are a former rugby captain, we've had one of those. If you're a senator, we've had one of those.

Or a retail magnet. We've had one of those.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm.

Scott McInnes: We, we want to talk about that, but we wanna talk about that as the contextual wrap. We don't wanna talk about that as the content. 'cause the content needs to be culture. Communications and leadership. Yes. So let's use your experience to talk about those things, and that's really important.

Yes. So, no, not, not, not every episode will resonate with everybody. And that's why probably the, the reusing and the repurposing of content is really important. 'cause while somebody might sit down and listen to, we normally do about 35 minute, 40 minute [00:30:00] episodes, somebody might listen and go, I thought that was bloody amazing.

That was for, for the whole 40 minutes. That was great. For somebody else, it might just be one little nugget in there. And maybe that's the nugget that you've pulled out and put in social.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, yeah. So they don't have to listen to

Scott McInnes: that episode because they've seen, oh, well I would never listen to that episode anyway.

But could you that that's a really interesting nugget or,

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. Oh,

Scott McInnes: if that's the kind of stuff they were talking about, I would've thought it was all rugby. But if that's the stuff then Hmm. Maybe, maybe I will listen to it. Maybe I'll listen.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's good. Scott, how do you keep the show, your show feeling human and real?

Um, especially in a B2B setting.

Scott McInnes: I think just by having. A laugh, just, just keeping the conversation really. Yeah. Human. You know what, what we talk about a lot is, um, is really human stuff because it is leadership, it's comms, it's culture. That's all people, you know, I say often to my clients. Organizations don't change.

People do. Hmm, people change. So if we can just be in our tone, in our conversation, [00:31:00] if we can just not be too stuck up and too formal, if we can just have a conversation like as I said earlier, two people having a cup of coffee, then I think that helps to kinda make it. Very listenable, if that's a word.

Which it isn't. Yeah. Um, but I'm sure there is a word. Feel free to write in people. Um, if, if there is a word that I missed there. Um, but I think it, it just gives you that opportunity to have a conversation and it's kind of lacking. And I look. I know Seth Godin, I'm never gonna have a million, you know, downloads a, a week or whatever Seth has, but I also don't have the, you know, the cuts in between all the, all the sections.

It just, I literally say to people, we start talking. Mm-hmm.

Sadaf Beynon: Then we

Scott McInnes: stop talking. We top and tail that and we put it out. That's what we do. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah.

Scott McInnes: Now, unless you're somebody like one of my guests, bless him, who was 83 and about, well his, his dogs had already gone mad 'cause somebody rang the doorbell.

Can you cut that out? Yeah. And then [00:32:00] he said near the end, he, he, he, he, he, he was, it was actually the year before he passed away. And um, he said, um, do you mind if I go to the bathroom, to the toilet? And then he said, can you cut that out? I went, yep, we can cut that out. No problem. Um, and that's the, that's literally only editing we will do.

Um, so I love it. It does, it does hopefully sound like a really nice human conversation that, that, that gives people something. Mm-hmm.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Yeah. I, I hear you. That's about the only editing we do as well.

Scott McInnes: Yeah. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. So what's next for your podcast?

Scott McInnes: Yeah, it's really interesting, I think, to keep going.

I think we've now gotten into a really nice rhythm. We made the mistake last year of not doing any, it got really, really busy at work, and I just lost, there's a, there's a, there's an Irish word grow, GIA father, which means strength.

Sadaf Beynon: Okay.

Scott McInnes: And I just kinda lost the grow for it last year.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Scott McInnes: And we got to the end of the year and I went, we haven't really done any podcasts.

And I went, I, I kind of miss that. Hmm. But how can we do it in a way that's just a bit [00:33:00] easier to do? So we went to the, we went to the series kinda model. Some people go out every week, some people go out twice a week, some people go out twice a year. Yeah. We've gone to now three kinda series of six episodes model, which means that you're basically compressing everything into a much tighter period where I might do the recording over two days.

Mm-hmm. I might do the discovery calls over two days and that's, that just makes it more doable, I guess. Yeah. And it means you can just keep going. Um, yeah, I kind of, in my head, I've kind of got a book. I, I think there's, there's probably kind of a book of, of insights from the podcast and not maybe necessarily something that will ever get published, but again, back to that idea of how do you keep repurposing the content.

Yeah. From little video clips to little quotes to carousels to mm-hmm. You know, white papers to, you know, I, I, it, there, there is tons of advice of I. Ideas of everything in those 130 episodes. I mean, what's that? A hundred? Probably the bones of a hundred hours of content. Yeah. So if you could [00:34:00] pull out some of those ideas, some of that thinking, some of the practical application, I think that could make a really, really nice book.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, I think that would be incredible.

Scott McInnes: Mm.

Sadaf Beynon: Um, what you were saying earlier about changing the cadence of, um, of your podcast, I think that's one of the things that's quite beautiful about podcasting, that you can actually really make it your own and whatever works for you and your audience.

Scott McInnes: Mm. I would not advise.

I would not advise changing the cadence to nothing though. Yeah, that was, that, that was a bad, that was a bad idea that that did. Yeah. So from, from, from literally twice a month to no times for a year. Yeah. Uh, that, that wasn't ideal. So I, I, if you're changing your cadence listeners, I wouldn't go that far.

Sadaf Beynon: No, that's good. Um, speaking of our listeners, if there's someone out there listening and is a bit on the fence about launching a podcast, what would you say to them?

Scott McInnes: I think if it's your, like, it's so easy. Like people like you and me, obviously talkers and we like doing these things. There's lots of people that don't like doing these things.

There are lots of people who are not [00:35:00] like me, um, who are maybe more introverted. This isn't their cup of tea. And if everyone say, I should do a podcast, do a podcast, do a podcast. Mm. It's not necessarily the right answer for you. Maybe, maybe doing a podcast isn't what you should be doing. Maybe you should be writing blogs or, or, or doing something else quietly on your own rather than going out and doing this.

So I think for those that are on the fence, it's thinking about, well, what is it you want to get from this and how much are you willing to put towards it? And of course. It's the cost as well. You know, it costs to put out every episode, um, between your time and also some investment of, you know, Riverside as we're recording on here.

Mm-hmm. If you are using a, a podcast producer for them to do all the edit and all that stuff. Um, so there's a, you know, there's, there's probably a few hundred euros per episode to be paying out as well. Mm-hmm. And are you gonna make that back? Uh, so lots of questions to, to ask yourself. Really sit down and think, is this what my business or my hobby, or just mm-hmm.

For the crack. Is this something that I just fancy doing just [00:36:00] because I can, you know?

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's absolutely right. Scott, this has been such a fun conversation. Thank you so much.

Scott McInnes: Thank you for having me. It's been absolutely fine being on this side of the microphone. I've, uh, very much appreciated all your questions.

Sadaf Beynon: Oh, no, that's, it's great. Scott, if, um, if someone wants to learn more about you, your work or connect with you directly, where should they go to do that?

Scott McInnes: So I am all over LinkedIn. Um, okay. So you'll find me there. Mm-hmm. And if you pop along to the website inspiringchange.ie. Um, you'll find us there as well.

And of course you'll find the podcast basically, wherever you find your podcasts, it's everywhere. So any, any of those places. Thank you very much. Great,

Sadaf Beynon: thank you. So to those tuning in, thank you for being here. All the links that Scott just mentioned can be found in the show description, and if you're listening and are curious about using podcasting as as a strategic tool for your own business growth, I hope this episode has really sparked some ideas or given you that nudge to explore it [00:37:00] further.

So as always, thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.