The Networking Trick That Beats Cold Calling | Reed Hansen

Reed Hansen: [00:00:00] As I expanded into my own podcast, I thought, okay, well this will be great.

, I'll have an audience and people will reach out. Now, that really hasn't happened from the outside. But my own clients, my existing clients that were previously only using us for. One service that we have in our portfolio, and they hear something in the podcast and they're, immediately interested. They want, oh, I, I didn't realize that you did, did this service, hearing me on a podcast gives me real authority, uh, that I, didn't have just by sending the email.

Sadaf Beynon: Hey there.

I'm Sadaf Beynon and this is Podjunction podcast, the show where business leaders share how they use podcasting to grow, connect, and build their brands. Today I am speaking to Reed Hansen. He's the Chief Growth Officer at Market Search and a seasoned digital marketing strategist who's helped everyone from startups to Fortune five hundred's grow smarter, faster, and louder. Reed's particularly passionate about how podcasting integrates into wider marketing [00:01:00] systems, and today we're digging into how he helps brands not just get louder. Actually build trust and deepen relationships and drive results. Reed, welcome to the show.

Reed Hansen: Thank you so much. I'm very glad to be here.

Sadaf Beynon: Thank you. Well, Reed, as I just said, you help businesses grow smarter, faster, and louder. How does this fit into, um, podcasting and into the bigger growth formula that you have?

Reed Hansen: Well, podcasting is a great means of getting your message and brand out to a large audience. Uh, you know, fortunately there's an environment that is, uh, has a relatively low, uh, barrier to entry in terms of, uh, you know, what's required of a. A podcast guest or a podcast producer. Um, and so it's easy to, to start in that field.

So, um, in addition to that, there is a nice culture in podcasting, a generous culture of collaboration and, uh, you know, [00:02:00] offers for mutual benefit. Um, you know, as I've attempted to work in the space of getting, uh, journalists to write about brands or, um. You know, other kinds of collaborations, it's often with a fee and it's, uh, it's more difficult to, uh, to do that.

Now with podcast, we can come in and, and speak extemporaneously, come in prepared. Um, it, it, it's, it's actually, it's a just a really quick way to, to, uh, get your brand and voice out there very quickly.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, absolutely Is. Um, for you, was the pod podcasting part of the equation something you did from day one? Was that part of your strategy or did it come later? What did that look like?

Reed Hansen: Yeah, it came later. So, you know, as I started my marketing agency, I came at it with, uh, my own background of technology sales. Uh, you know, I'd worked in the software field and, and, uh, selling agency services and, and I. From my perspective, the formula [00:03:00] was cold emails, cold calls, uh, whatnot. You know, the, the, the traditional sales outreach, you know, even knocking doors if, if possible.

Now, it was difficult to, to do that. It's, it was hard to convey in a short message and initial outreach the value that our agency offered or the skills and expertise that, that we offered. And just on a whim, I, earlier this year, I started reaching out to, uh, relevant podcasts in my field and asking if I could guest and speak about some success stories that we'd had.

And, uh, from there we, uh, you know, I, I kind of embarked on this journey of, uh, getting a series of guest opportunities. I found that this was actually a fairly easy and repeatable process, uh, that, that I could. Could undergo to get guest spots. And then after a few opportunities on, uh, as a guest, I, I decided to start my own podcast.

And, [00:04:00] uh, so I found I had a great source of, uh, guests that, uh, people that had hosted me on their podcast, uh, clients, uh, extended network. And quickly turned into, uh, our, my, my highest performing channel. And I can talk a little bit about that too, if, um, if you'd like, but it, it has really transformed our business.

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. So, um, I'm really curious, what was it that made you think, actually I could do this myself? I don't need to guess anymore.

Reed Hansen: Yeah. You know, it, this, um, and, and I'll, I'll say I still, I still pursue as many guest opportunities as I can. Um, and, um. I, you know, 'cause I, I do find that very valuable. But the, I think what sparked was the many podcasts that I, I guessed on, I found that many, there were many practitioners that, um, had had just, I.

Embarked on, uh, you know, a podcast. They weren't necessarily [00:05:00] particularly skilled and I, I don't mean that in any negative way, but just they were focused on pro producing and, and doing it on a regular basis. And, um. You know, and I, I noted that I, I do have a tendency and conversation to ask a lot of questions.

I, I like to listen more than I like to talk, and so I found that, um, that lends well to a podcast conversation. You know, I, I, I am great at. Thinking of con uh, conversation questions and I prompt people. And, um, and then I use some tools like chat, GBT and Jasper and Gemini to help me structure a conversation and, you know, with some, some prompts and some inputs on, on their background in business.

And, um, like I said, it can be a, a very repeatable, efficient process.

Sadaf Beynon: And are you, have you enjoyed that learning process that, um, yeah. Or has it been something that's a bit of a mix? What's it like?

Reed Hansen: Well, ab [00:06:00] absolutely, you know it, it's. Um, you know, it's funny, I, I do get the numbers and analytics on the number of subscribers and downloads and, um, you know, frankly, I'm not, you know, I'm not topping the charts on on many topics. Uh, and so I, I'd say that the value that I'm getting is, has been with the actual contacts I've been making with these guests.

And so I've, I've learned a ton. I've been exposed to, uh, software tools and, uh, marketing processes that I hadn't been familiar with before. And, you know, I'm, I'm engaging in kind of a cold first meeting with a lot of potential partners or potential clients down the line that, uh, you know, it is just like a format that, um, is like a, a sales.

Process, but it is just so much more warm and, um, you know, and, and productive. I, I would say, um, [00:07:00] I, and you know, and I think to answer your question, do I, the learning process, I. You know, I, I gradually, I've been acquiring better equipment, like, you know, external mics and external cameras and, and I have a light shining on my face and, um, probably need another one.

But, um, so I, you know, I've been experimenting and I think by nature I'm a little bit of a tinkerer. I do like to try new, new tools and toys and, um, so I do enjoy that process. Um, uh, you know, and using the software and, um, you know, each time I, I. Can identify, uh, process like the editing process for the podcast.

Each time I can identify it. I'm, I'm always trying to like system systematize it, so I, I don't, uh, have to spend as much time on it. But,

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah.

Reed Hansen: yeah, it's kind of like it's an iterative process and I'm getting better and better,

Sadaf Beynon: yes. I, I totally agree and I think, I think it remains an iterative process, I think 'cause you, there's always so [00:08:00] much to learn. You said it too, with what you learned so much from your guests as well. There's the, I think the whole process really adds to you, doesn't it?

Um, you, you mentioned earlier that. Your podcasting. Um, well, your podcast is one of your highest performing channels. Is that in terms of trust building or lead generation, or is there more, I'd love for you to expand on that.

Reed Hansen: Yeah. Um, surprisingly, you know, when I, um. You know, I, I, I initially thought this will be great, you know, first the guesting. I was like, this will be great. I will get leads from the audience of the podcast that I'm guesting on. And didn't happen at first. And then, you know, as I kind of expanded into my own podcast, I thought, okay, well this will be great.

I'll, I'll have an audience and people will reach out. They'll find me on the directory, and then they'll reach out. Now, that really hasn't happened from the outside. Um. I'm not saying it can't happen, but um, I. Have also been posting my, uh, podcast links to the [00:09:00] podcast snippets in, in highlight form to a newsletter that we publish each week.

And I have been getting, uh, my own clients, my existing clients that were previously only using us for. One service that we have in our portfolio, and they hear something in the podcast and they're, they're immediately interested. They want, oh, I, I didn't realize that you did, did this service, or, I didn't realize that, um, SEO was as important as it does.

Like they're actually listening to this and they. See, you know, and, and I'll say like, we've been sending out the newsletter for a long time and all of a sudden seeing me on screen or hearing me on a podcast gives me real authority, uh, that I, I didn't have just by sending the email. And, you know, and possibly it was just a format that it was a.

Um, uh, better way for them to learn and um, or just more engaging. And so the real, real value has been [00:10:00] increased authority in the eyes of people that I'm already working with and, uh, you know, so that's been tremendous.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, it is absolutely tremendous for that. I, I completely agree. Um, I'm curious how, so before you just had email and then you've, you know, you started the podcast, you've got the podcast, you've got the reels or the

snippets, you've got the newsletter. Are you, um, how do you, how do you make that work? Do you record the podcast and use, well, you use snippets from that, but then is the newsletter an extension of that podcast?

Or how, how do you format it?

Reed Hansen: Yeah, so we, so, uh, we, we do. Three newsletters and, and uh, one is a general newsletter that we just send to everybody in our database. A lot of it is, uh, updates on marketing in general. And, um, if I do a podcast on a general topic, I will, um, I. Uh, post a link to that or snippets, um, inside that newsletter.

And then we have a couple industry specific ones that, um, you know, when I do an industry specific, [00:11:00] uh, podcast, uh, then we make it applicable there. Um. You know, the, like I said, the newsletter had been in existence and we had been filling it with items from our blog and, uh, occasionally an infographic. But, um, the, you know, enriching the newsletter with the podcast content has been, uh, has really increased the open rates and the click rates.

And, um, and like I said, I, um, I'm getting great response from existing clients,

Sadaf Beynon: That's fantastic. What are some real world results, if you don't mind sharing

that you've seen When podcasting is paired with a, with a strong marketing system, I.

Reed Hansen: Yeah. So, um, uh, you know, I, I've, I've started working with a few of my clients to help kind of replicate our, our own process to get, uh, podcast guest opportunities. And they have found that, um, you know, it's funny, I, I'm kind of a generalist as a marketing agency, but, [00:12:00] but uh, the photography studio that I'm working with has been getting a ton of guests.

Um, opportunities. She focuses on a very niche genre in, in photography and, and it's, um. Uh, that's funny. I'm just getting a text notification. She just, she just texted me, she said, thank you so much. I, I have had 61,

um, podcast guest opportunities since we started two months ago. And, um, so, so it's been, um, a real.

Value. And you know, I think just because she has some very specific experiences and, and something that are, um, that many of the, uh, women's entrepreneurship community and, uh, photography community can, can learn from. And um, so when we found like kind of the niche that that was great for her, it just really took off.

But she, she has been seeing from, from a results standpoint, she, um, is g. She can only shoot in her studio locally. But, um, her reach [00:13:00] as, uh, as a podcast guest is all over the country and she's seeing, um, increased traffic to her website, um, which we're able to track and we can gather, um, additional contacts and, um, and put those into her, her other marketing pipelines.

So,

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. No, that's really good. I, I love what you're saying because I think often. The expectation is that once, once, um, I get a podcast up and running and it becomes from a marketing arm, the ROI is just, you know, gonna be amazing. And it doesn't always translate like that. You know,

there's the, like you said, the authority building

and the, the, the networking.

There's so much more that, um, that it can do for you and enrich your business with. Hmm.

Reed Hansen: know, I, one learning I had, um, I was experimenting with the format and, you know, my first few, I interviewed, um, some members of my team just to get some content out there. And, um, those did fine and they were well shared. And then I thought, okay, I'll do a solo one where I'm just. Just [00:14:00] me talking, it's scripted.

And, uh, it, it will be titled AI 1 0 1. Now my dear mother, who is always like my fan and cheerleader, she, um, she told me she, you know, gave me some hard feedback. She said, you know what, that was, that was your worst podcast. And, and, uh, and I was like, oh, interesting. And, um, so, you know, I ha I've kind of abandoned that format, but like I, if I actually look at the numbers.

It was, the title of that podcast was AI 1 0 1, demystifying AI for Small Business Owners. And, um, it, it is by far my most popular download. Uh, you know, people will open the o open the podcast page and they'll scroll down to that, download it. I mean, I have like hundreds of downloads of that episode.

Compared to like, you know, the dozens that I can get from, from these others. So it, it's interesting sometimes the, the feedback you get doesn't match the numbers and, and, um, so you [00:15:00] know, you do have to continue to experiment and

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. You do, you do. I think sometimes we can stop doing one thing too early. Haven't given it enough time.

Reed Hansen: Right, right.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah.

Um, what other learnings have you have? You had?

Reed Hansen: Well, um, so, you know, there there's a lot of, uh, details to, to manage. You know, at first I, uh, wasn't sure, you know, how important it was to add the additional data in the show notes and the, uh, you know, title. So I was kind of looking to some of the podcasts that I subscribed to and, and really enjoyed, and, um.

You know, so I, I experimented with the format, you know, first it was like, I'll just put the topic of the e the, uh, podcast. And then, then I thought I'd try just the name of the podcast. And then, um, you know, I found kind of a combination of the two. Is, is the, the best way to get people's attention. Also really important to promote the, the download.

'cause even if you have subscribers that get automatic downloads, you still [00:16:00] should, uh. Be very, um, deliberate about both, um, sending preview posts about the, your appearance,

uh, and also follow up where you post snippets and highlights. Um, and it's, it's important to send to, to create these snippets, uh, because.

You know, and, and particularly in video, uh, on these posts, those, those seem to resonate the most, or at least the algorithm seems to like those the most on like LinkedIn and, and Facebook. Um, and then that, that content is, um. Really all you should do on Instagram, you can't really post, uh, link links and Instagram in a, in a nice format.

Um, but Instagram and TikTok, those are, uh, so valuable. So the value of those short form snippets is, is, is kind of what drives the most, um, the most downloads and subscribers seems like.

Sadaf Beynon: No, that's good. I, I, I find [00:17:00] those some of the most tedious things to do in the

whole podcasting process,

but I agree. They do, they do help build that momentum and drive traffic. Yeah, I agree. But yeah, it's, it's hard work sometimes

trying to fit those extra bits in.

Reed Hansen: yes. Yes. And, and from one of the, um, I'd say more accomplished podcasters, I had a guest appearance on, um, he. Which I haven't done, but I know he does and has had a lot of success with, is, um, he does follow up podcasts where he comments on some of the discussion podcasts. So just, just him speaking in, in a scripted way or, or very structured way about a topic that was raised on the podcast.

And so it, um, so he, he. Combines his good content that he had from the, the guest with, uh, his own expertise and, and, um, is able to even further establish himself as an authority in that area.

Sadaf Beynon: No, that's great. Have you had any [00:18:00] surprises either from running the show or helping clients launch one that reshaped your approach?

Reed Hansen: Yeah, that's a good question. I, um, I, I would say from, uh. Surprise standpoint, it's been interesting that, um, different podcasts have different approaches to, um, onboarding. Um, so some, in some cases there's, they ask for an introductory call before we do our guest appearance to kind of, to frame it out. And, um, some ask for me to provide questions that they will ask me.

On the, on the podcast, uh, which, which can be helpful or they, um, they produce their own questions that they send to me in, in advance. Um, and I've actually found that to be a good practice that I send. Um, I. A rough outline of questions that, that [00:19:00] we can do. I don't. Um, so I've learned from that, that it, it helps them know what direction I'd like to take it and, and what kinds of stories I'd like to get from them.

Um, and so that, that preparation of the guest is, is valuable. I don't necessarily, uh, need the preview, um, call. I think, you know, a, a text back and forth is, is fine. Um, I. I have, I guess I'm, I'm dreading the day that somebody comes on and has a particularly like grading personality or, or, um, has like a, uh, some sort of, um, opinion that I like, just can't tolerate, you know?

Um, but had, that hasn't happened yet. And I've been able to, um, dance around a lot of things, although some, sometimes I was, a couple times I've talked to people that brought up, um, uh, very inflammatory, uh. Political topic on the podcast. That was just kind of, just as an aside and I'm like, whoa, boy, I'm not touching that, you know?

And, um, let's, uh, yeah, [00:20:00] what's the next question? You know, so,

um, you know, hard to prevent that I wasn't in the, the show prep, but,

um, I generally think that's a good practice to avoid, um, uh, very divisive issues on the, on the podcast, politics and religion in

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, I think, it's good practice because you prep them to. To be their best on

your show. Right? And, and that's what you want. You wanna bring value to your listeners and um, also to them as a guest. So I think that it makes so much sense. We, um, we have a couple podcasts and for this one, as you know, because I'm talking to other podcasters, I don't, I don't really feel the need to have to prep them,

so it's just like, let's just jump on and record.

Whereas there's other ones where like, let's just, um, have a pre-call. Let's just see where you're, where, where you sit, and make sure that, um, if that they're a fit for the show,

because I

Reed Hansen: Right, Absolutely. And, and that's probably, that's a good guideline. I think most of [00:21:00] the guests I've been having that are coming in as, um, somewhat strangers are podcasters themselves. So I think that does give them a lot of, uh, at least experience in, in having a onscreen conversation. I.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. Um, Reed, what do you think, um, there, or, or what's something business leaders often underestimate when starting a podcast? What would you say?

Reed Hansen: Um, I think the, the time required for editing and doing the, the post-production tasks, um, uh, you know, I I would say it's, it's quite a bit more difficult than, um. Uh, than than I expected. And, uh, time consuming. Um, I've been trying to outsource it to my team and it, uh, has been. You know, a little bit of a challenge.

You know, I, I, I picked it up and I've, I've been doing it for a few months [00:22:00] now, and, um, you know, the first time I had a member of my team do it, she, there was an error and it was actually kind of, it was a glitch on the software and I, I had seen that before and I knew how to restore a backup and, um, you know, merge the recordings and, you know, so what I had explained to her.

That it would be super smooth and super easy was not the case. Now she's intimidated and doesn't want to do it. And so, um, but yeah, the,

um, you know, that, that, that can be time consuming. And, um, there's, there's just a, there's a lot of variables. Like, uh, I'll have guests that say like, oh, I'd like to re-answer that question.

And so that has to be edited out or, um. Or there, there will be, um, pauses or, um, they'll say like, oh, you know, um, I'm not sure how I answer that. Can we just cut that whole question? I'll get sometimes get that. And so those are things that it feels like it's, I can do it, but, um, my team [00:23:00] is still still learning.

Um, and then, you know, the, the other task in post-production is creating the, the rich posts and the snippets and, um. And you need somebody with some skills to, to do that and some time, so.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, AI is, is good,

but it doesn't, it doesn't do everything for you.

Reed Hansen: Right, right. Yeah. And like you said, it'll, it'll improve and,

um, but it does need a, a human touch and

Sadaf Beynon: I agree. I mean, I think AI is great, but I think it's only as good as, or as great as the prompts you give it,

and so you still need to know what you're trying to get with it.

Reed Hansen: Absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, that, that's exactly right. And, and, um, yeah, I use a, I use a platform that has some AI that helps with editing, but it, fortunately it just shows me what it would edit. And I check yes or no, but, um, it's often incorrect is often like, [00:24:00] you know, I, I wanna keep that, you know.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah.

Reed Hansen: not as simple as just turn it on and it does it all for you.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, unfortunately.

Reed Hansen: Right.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Reed, can we just go back a bit to, um, what you were saying about prepping your guests

and, you know, talking about getting value

for your listeners. How do you make sure that your podcast isn't just content, but also a relationship building tool with your, with your guest?

Reed Hansen: Yeah, that's a good question and, and something that I, um, am evolving on. Um, I've made a lot of these connections through LinkedIn and, um, you know, it's nice to like officially. Blink up on LinkedIn and be able to follow their career progress and any updates that they're posting and see other podcasts I, you know, like and follow.

Um, and so, you know, I do my best each, um, podcaster guest to follow their podcast as well and, and tune in when I can. And I, [00:25:00] um, make, try to make it a practice to leave a five star review and, uh, you know, help, help as much as I can. Um, you know, and so it really, I. You know, and I understand that there are people that are expert in this, in turning podcast guests into potential clients or partners.

I don't know that I've really landed on the pure process on, on how that's done.

Um, but I do see this as, um, at least the start of a long. Relationship. Um, you know, in a few cases I have talked to people that said they'd like to revisit a, a business relationship in a few months. And, um, so there's some potential there.

There's like an opportunity in the pipeline with, with a few of these people. Um. But I, yeah, I'd like to be even more methodical about this and, um, [00:26:00] be able to get to the, uh, you know, how we can work together more efficiently. I, I do like the, um, the format because I have a ton of information about them and, um, we've had like a real human conversation.

So, so those things are, are a great start. Um. I, I, I'm, it's no longer a cold communication each time I reach out to them. So, um, uh, you know, I, I think there's a lot of potential there.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. No, I agree. And thank you so much for sharing that and for

being so candid with it. I think, um. As you, you implied too that podcasting is, is the long game.

You know, it's not, you don't get results right away and, you know, you're still quite early in your journey as

well. And I've had PE guests on the show that said, have said it, you know, can take up to three years for things to really start going and you

start seeing real results from it. So yeah, I, I agree. A lot of potential.

Reed Hansen: Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like a friendship, you know? You never know when [00:27:00] you'll work together. Um, I, I've just, you know, started working with a, a college. College roommate from 20 plus years ago.

Um, he's, I've taken him on as a client for my marketing agency and, and um, you know, so like you never know when a relationship turns into, uh, you know, potential business partnership.

It doesn't have to it, but,

Sadaf Beynon: it could.

Reed Hansen: it's good to, good to have friends.

Sadaf Beynon: Absolutely. Yes. Reed, what would you say is next for MarketSurge when it comes to podcasting and growth strategies?

Reed Hansen: Yeah, I, um, so I, I'm, I'm actually enjoying this cadence. I, you know, I'd worried that I'd get tired of, uh, podcasting or bored, you know, answering the same questions. Um, it doesn't seem to be the case. Um, I, I. Uh, I found it just a great vehicle for continued networking and, um, I expect that as both our, uh, [00:28:00] client base grows and, uh, the reach of the podcast grow, that I'll see increased opportunities, um, for, for the business.

And, um, so I'm, I'm kind of taking a patient approach where I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing and try to make each podcast a little bit better. And. Um, you know, just, you know, iteratively improve and, um, I'd expect more good things to happen and maybe the fruits of podcasts, 1, 2, 3, 4, and five start to bear fruit in, you know, later this year.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. No, that's, that's great. And I think, um, there's a lot to be said for consistency. I

think you're absolutely right.

Just carrying on.

Reed Hansen: absolutely.

Sadaf Beynon: Reed, for business leaders who are thinking about starting a podcast, what's one shift in the mindset that you think you need before diving in?

Reed Hansen: Um, you know, I think maybe somebody that is, uh, diving in might expect to see some instant results or see like, [00:29:00] uh. Every podcast generate a sales conversation. I would look at, um, like a long tail of measurables in your podcast. So, um, you know, there, there's so many things to measure. There's your subscribers, your downloads, your, uh, the number of podcasts produced, your rankings on.

Different podcast directories.

Um, but also just, just make note of anybody that references your podcast in conversation or people that share it on social media and, uh, you know, just, just keep kind of a, like a loose note of. Everything, every interaction that people are, are having. So you can identify like, oh, okay.

That, that shared post turned into a, a sales conversation with somebody that didn't have anything to do with the, the podcast itself. Um. But I, you know, I'm, I'm starting to observe my LinkedIn business page subscribers are growing, or my Google [00:30:00] business page, you know, is getting more, more views and, and these are some, or, or even my SEO is improving.

So, you know, these are all factors that, that can be driven by putting yourself out there. And so stay consistent. Know it's a long game. Um, do not, uh, don't stop after. You know, a few podcasts when you haven't, um, you know, seen instant ROI just, and the, just know that the, these conversations, it's a relatively low, low barrier to entry and, um, just consider it a networking exercise until it bears fruit.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, I like that. I like that. Consider it a, say that again.

You say it

Reed Hansen: a networking exercise until, uh, any of the tangible benefits start to show themselves.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. I love that. Thank you,

Reed Hansen: You bet.

Sadaf Beynon: Reed. This has been so much fun. It's been packed with insight. Thank you so much.

Reed Hansen: Thank you. I'm, I'm delighted to be here and [00:31:00] really glad we connected.

Sadaf Beynon: Awesome. Reed, before you go though, if someone wants to connect with you or learn more about market surge, where should they go to do that?

Reed Hansen: Great. The best place is our website, marketsurge.io, and I can be reached at my email at [email protected]. And that's, um, REED.

Um. But yeah, delighted to talk to anybody. Uh, if you think you might be an interesting guest on our podcast, I would love to, love to speak with you. Uh, in addition, if you are interested in talking about your business to me, I, I will take any call I get you

Sadaf Beynon: That's awesome. Thank you, Reed. And to

those listening in, thanks for being here. And all the links that Reed has just mentioned can be found in the show description. And if today's episode has sparked some ideas about how podcasting could fit into your own growth strategy, I hope it's given you a new angle to explore. Thank you for listening and bye for now. [00:32:00]