The Hidden Layer: Podcasting’s Unseen Business Benefits | Nick Trueman

Sadaf Beynon: [00:00:00] Welcome to Podjunction, where business meets podcasting. Whether you're on a morning jog, driving to work, whipping up a meal, or just taking a moment for yourself, our weekly bite-sized episodes. Promise fresh insights from successful podcasters who have cracked the code of using podcasts to grow their business.

So whether you're a podcasting newbie or seasoned podcaster, grab your notebooks and get ready.

Matt Edmundson: Hello. Welcome to PodJunction where we talk about the art of growing your business with podcasts or something like that. And beside me is Sadaf, my co host for this impeccable journey into all things podcasting. Oh yes. We should get ChatGPT to write some kind of funky intro that I can read at the start.

Okay. No, I'm joking.

You can write

Sadaf Beynon: it in the voice of anyone you [00:01:00] want.

Matt Edmundson: Maybe we should do a different voice for every podcast episode. I'm particularly looking forward to the one in the voice of Winston Churchill. Okay. Yeah. I like telling chat GPT to write things in the voice of Winston Churchill. It's quite good fun.

Sadaf Beynon: I'll do that. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: So yeah, very warm. Welcome to you. If you're new to the show, make sure you subscribe and do all that good stuff you do with podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts from. It just really helps us do what we do. And we just love podcasting, been doing it for a fair few years now.

And on this show, we get to interview some really cool people. About how they use podcasting to grow their business. And then we just chat about what they chatted about, which is always fun and just dissect what they say a little bit what I guess say and figure out, can we implement this more in our own business or bring some of our own stories in?

Yeah we call that, do we still, do we call that Conversation Street or is that a different show that I'm thinking of? That's a different show. Okay. Apparently we don't call it Conversation street. Because that would be, ripping off somebody. But no, it's [00:02:00] that's what we do. So yeah, warm welcome to you.

Great that you're here. Hope you're enjoying the show. Do you know, let us know if there's anything particularly you want us to cover. We're just going to keep going with it. We're just going to keep chatting to people. And if you're a podcaster yourself using podcasts to grow your business, do get in touch.

We'd love to have you on the show. I'd love to interview and chat to you. Is that all the housekeeping out of the way?

Sadaf Beynon: That is all the housekeeping out the way.

Matt Edmundson: This is awesome. I normally ask Sadaf questions like this because Sadaf is you're one of the producers here, aren't you? And you've been producing a lot of podcasts for a long time.

So I just, I never know. I just chat. I just do whatever I'm told.

Sadaf Beynon: Wow.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. There's some disagreement. That's another podcast.

Yes. And one way we should probably get your wife in, Matthew, to have that conversation. And your mother. She'll be like, there's no way he does what he's told.

It's just not gonna happen. So yeah. Anyway, how are you doing?

Sadaf Beynon: Good. Yeah. You sure? [00:03:00] Yeah, I've got it. I've got a bit of a cough. Bit of a cough.

Matt Edmundson: Bit of a cough, bit of a cold.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. But whatever.

Matt Edmundson: So I've really enjoyed the fact that we're in a studio, which is nice and warm and sealed from all kinds of sounds, sound proof, which means there's no air movement in this room at all whatsoever.

And yeah, so next week I'll be here. Load up on the zinc. Welcome to the show. My name's Matt. It's snot pouring everywhere, sorry ladies and gentlemen, we'll move on now.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, okay. So today, Nick Trueman from Winning With Shopify podcast. Oh yeah. And he is going to be talking about the unquantifiable benefits of podcasting.

Matt Edmundson: The unquantifiable benefits of podcasting. That's a really cool title. I just want to say, what are the unquantifiable benefits? Surely it's a bit of an oxymoron Because if they're unquantifiable, we can't quantify them.

Sadaf Beynon: Yes,

Matt Edmundson: [00:04:00] so we can't talk about them. Because by talking about and defining them, we're quantifying them.

Sadaf Beynon: Okay. Let's just listen to him and then we'll make that decision. But before we

Matt Edmundson: don't be dantic, Matt.

Sadaf Beynon: Before we do, there's lots of myths out there about podcasting. If you could debunk one of them,

Matt Edmundson: what would it be? Oh, that's a really, you should really give me. So I'm going to think about that, what would it be?

I think it would be, there's two myths that I would probably, that I hear the most. One is podcasting is hard to do and it really isn't, not now. I think it's absolutely, I think it's not necessarily as easy to do it well as maybe We would all hope that it would be, but it is actually pretty straightforward to get a podcast up and running and started.

You don't need a lot of technology. You can just crack on and do it. There's plenty of videos on YouTube. We're putting loads of content out. If we haven't done so already, we'll be putting loads of content out on how to do a whole bunch of [00:05:00] these things. But it's one of those things where actually setting up a podcast is pretty straightforward.

It's like I say, it's not so straightforward to do it well, you have to, you do have to think about that and I think that would probably be the second myth, which is the Field of Dreams, build it and they'll come kind of thing. Do you know that reference? No, I don't. 80s pop culture, the movie with Kevin Costner, Field of Dreams, if you build it, they'll come.

Sadaf Beynon: Still no. Okay.

Matt Edmundson: I'm just me in the old room tonight, isn't it really? So yeah, this idea of if you build it, if you just put the podcast out there, people will listen to it. And so I'm going to set up a podcast and a lot of people do 10 episodes or whatever they, they've got episode five and six and only four people have downloaded it.

And two of those are their mum. And it can be a bit disheartening because you're like why have I not got 100, 000 listeners? And it's a bit like doing YouTube channels with a million subscribers and yours has got four and you're there's a bit of a mismatch.

And there are some people that do reach those heights and [00:06:00] they'll tell you how they do that. And you can do some of those strategies. It doesn't mean you're going to go get all of those subscribers. And so I think that would be the second myth that actually, just because you have a podcast doesn't mean you're going to get a hundred thousand listeners, but.

I think you can get to a place where you do have a hundred thousand listeners. I just don't think it's a case of I'll just start recording and people will listen. So that would be the two things. Does that make sense? Yeah. Cool. Would you add anything else in there?

Sadaf Beynon: I would add, I think that the podcast space is saturated and do we really need another podcast?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Good myth to debunk. It is definitely not saturated. There is so much space in this industry for more podcasts. I think there's what, like half a million podcasts now, of which only maybe 150, 200, 000 are actually active podcasts.

Sadaf Beynon: Oh, wow. No, I don't know any of that.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I was told that, I don't know how true that statistic is.

It was one I was told the other day from a podcasting platform. If there's 200, 000 active podcasts,

it's definitely not saturated, is it? If you [00:07:00] think about how many YouTube channels there are. If you think about how many TV channels there are, it's probably about 200, 000 cable shows these days, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I think we've got a long way to go, I wouldn't worry about it. That's a good myth to debunk. Yeah. Good question. Very good question. Moving on. All right. So let's play Nick and then Sadaf and I will be back after this. What are the unquantifiable differences it's made to your business, do you think?

Nick Trueman: I think some of those things I mentioned already about like my business, I'm the only director here. So it's very much. If I'm having a bad week, it can be really infectious. If I'm having a really good week though, equally it can be very infectious. And I think the podcast it's something that I think the team are very much starting to get behind.

And so when people say tell me about the place you work to their friends or they meet someone at an event we're running or somewhere we are like a conference and saying yeah, I work for this agency. We've got the podcast. Like touching in, I think it's unquantifiable, but it's super useful.

Don't get me wrong, we're all in business to make money, but if it wasn't making money, I think I would still run it. And I think the final reason I'll give for that, and it's very [00:08:00] unquantifiable you could quantify, but even talking to existing clients There's one in particular I know you started listening to my podcast and the episode I just recorded literally minutes before jumping on here with you.

On that episode, I said, there's a particular client of mine. I know you're listening, but I won't mention your name. You're doing this at the moment and actually being able to say to clients and also to potential clients, Hey, look, we do this thing. Like we are actually an authority here. And also we're not necessarily paid to do it, we don't advertise it, we don't promote it, but then we have thousands of people tuning in every week.

We must know what we're talking about. There's something important here. And we do, I regularly say on the podcast, please go to our website and just fill out any of the forms and give us some feedback. And people give feedback about what they like about it, and you do get I've had some hate mail.

Over the years, I found myself googling a famous saying because someone left a review on our podcasting on Apple, you can go and find it, and it said that's not a famous saying. So I googled it and nine different football managers have all been quoted saying it. I'm like, it's famous enough for me.

[00:09:00] Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: So you would you'd do it even if you couldn't quantify the differences. Sorry, you would do the podcast even if you weren't necessarily making money from it, I think is what you said. And so do you, you're quite an infectious character anyway, but do you have a, do you have a real joy when you do the podcast?

If I can use that phrase, do you, is it a joyful experience for you?

Nick Trueman: Yeah, I hope the infectious thing is not a negative, because we just got COVID.

Matt Edmundson: Because I think you can transfer that, can't you, when you interview people. I think if you're in, if you're joyful, which is a bit of an old fashioned word I think that comes across and I think that's quite infectious.

Yeah, absolutely. And so that's the context that I'm bringing this up in really.

Nick Trueman: Yeah, I think, the thing, the things around engagement I definitely come into podcasts probably more negative than I am the moment the guest appears and we start talking, and I really feed off of that.

I think that's one of the biggest things for me is I love meeting people. I love talking to new [00:10:00] people. It's one of the reasons I run a business. It's one of the reasons I do some of the things I do in my social life is I love meeting people. I love getting out and talking and hearing stories and sharing stories and all that sort of stuff.

So I think one of the things for me about the joyfulness is, even if I'm brutally honest, even before jumping on here, this is the second time we've, Arranged to do this because last time I was like, Oh, I'm so busy today. Have I got time for that? And it's a really negative way to approach it.

But even like now, as soon as I get on and we start having a conversation there's also this weird I don't know how to describe this, but a bit like your word joyful. There's another element to this, which is the fact we know people are listening means we behave a bit differently. You and I were doing this and we weren't recording, it was just going out to lots of people, so even the way you and I were talking before we hit record we were having a good old natter Cs of just yeah, we're going to talk about that, talk about this, and and by the way, our name in shame, Matt, he did say to me, I don't know what I'm going to be asking you yet, which I

thought was hilarious.

Yeah, I've I've been on more podcasts like that than I can do it. I've got a secret [00:11:00] weapon, which is he's called Byron and he organizes all the podcasts for me. So he always makes notes. So I've still got them open from the last one. So the notes were tell us about your journey, a bit about yourself.

What you've What have been the main methods to grow your brand? How do you use crowdfunding? What do you do to retain customers to maximize lifetime value? And how can people get hold of you? Those are the notes he gave me. So I probably asked three times as many questions or covered other topics in sort of discussion, but I think it's yeah it's definitely a different element to it, but I guess a good question for me to ask you as well, as a fellow podcaster, Matt is, how do you go into podcasts?

Do you jump around the room, prep yourself, or do you just hit go? And then as soon as they appear, you just switch on, like I do. Is it the same for you?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, exactly the same. Because quite often the people on the podcast, this one's great because you know the people.

Yeah. Yeah. So this whole series has been great because I know everyone that's been on the show. That's a good point. Yeah. And it, it just does feel different and you are, you're, I'm a lot more at ease, I think. And so I know I'm gonna come onto this podcast. I haven't got a clue what I'm gonna ask you, but I know we're gonna have a great conversation about podcasting.

And it'd be the same if it was way round. You've got just the better [00:12:00] skills than I have in that area. But like I was recording a podcast this morning and somebody I'd never really met and your Byron is my Sadaf. Sadaf behind the scenes, making all the magic happen. And again, she writes notes.

And so before the podcast, I normally spend 10 minutes just looking through the notes. Looking at their website, just getting an eye, because it's normally the first time I've spoken to them. Yes. And so I have to come on to screen, especially because if the people you're interviewing, like we've got one podcast series with Push where most of the people have never been on podcasts before.

And so they come on and it's a bit, a little bit like. A rabbit caught in headlights and so you have to come on and be a bit more energetic. It's going to be all right. It's going to be fine. Don't panic. I'm safe. It's okay. And so I don't jump around the room, but I understand a little bit about the person that I'm talking to.

Yeah, and then I spend the first five minutes putting them at ease usually

Nick Trueman: I think you're absolutely right I think you want to put people at ease So I always [00:13:00] I have a list the questions I go through before we hit record I always ask things like have you recorded podcast before if they say yes have you used Riverside Which I used to record at the moment.

We seem to switch every six months or a year. There's always a better way Yeah. As long as you get a 4k video and good audio, who cares? It does make a difference. It does. Certainly to the the purse strings, but I always ask them, have you used Riverside before? And if they say no, I explain that like my video is going to look really blurry.

Yours is going to look blurry to me because it prioritizes audio so we can have a good conversation, right? And you're feeding back all of these bits and pieces so they know what's going on. And I can hear your brain right now, Matt, just going you should use this one. But I think it's, you're absolutely right.

It's about putting people's minds at ease. One thing I always say to people as well is. I always say to them don't worry, I'm going to be talking probably as much as you. And so although I'm interviewing you and asking you questions, there will also be an element of me feeding in stuff. And I give them like literally a sort of 10 second, I run a PPC SEO consultancy.

So anything new, customer acquisition, marketing related why retention is so important to me, because I can spend twice as much per customer if you can get an [00:14:00] extra sale out of every customer. It works. And so adding that concept. So then they're in this place now of okay, great. I'm not just going to be constantly talking.

There'll be someone else asking questions as well. But I think you're absolutely right. I think making sure the guest is relaxed and also I, one of my favorite things to do if I can, it really relaxes people is when you're on record, I've done it on this one already. Mention something that was said before you hit record.

It really brings it to life, and I think it pulls the audience into the room. Yeah,

Sadaf Beynon: yeah. If you're intrigued and want to dive deeper into this conversation, check out PodJunction Cohort, where you can listen to the complete interview and much more. Simply visit theplodjunction. com for more information about how to join.

Matt Edmundson: Sorry, we were just chatting away. That ended a bit quicker than I expected it to, we were just chatting about Nick's video there.

But yeah. Good. Welcome back to something we're not calling Conversation Street. Although it says, look on the screen there, it says [00:15:00] Conversation Street. Oh

Sadaf Beynon: dear.

Matt Edmundson: You can't see this, but on our recording equipment, it says this scene, this segment is called Conversation Street. Yes. Welcome back. So Nick, what do we think?

Sadaf Beynon: I think that was great. Unquantifiable benefits. What did you think? Was it unquantifiable?

Matt Edmundson: I think, yeah, although that was your question. I'd like to point out, I didn't realize it.

I forgotten it was me that asked that question. So I realized I've just gone and debunked how you can't have quantifiable benefits and then talk about them.

And yet it was me that asked that question. Sorry, ladies and gentlemen that's okay though. It was interesting because I, I think when, we were talking about myths earlier, but one of the things you find with any, marketing medium is that there are certain benefits that come with that medium that you weren't expecting and that you experience as you go through and you're like, that's [00:16:00] great.

But I don't know if I could justify that if, if I had to stand before the board of a company and go, we should do this because of X, Y, and Z, I can't necessarily quantify. With pound shillings and pence, sorry if you're not English. But if you can't quantify with return on investment with KPIs, all those sorts of key metrics everybody looks for it .

Can be a bit tricky, but there are so many of those things with podcasting. And was interesting how Nick went straight to one that I'd never thought about. And that is that his staff are now quite getting quite behind the podcast. He's got a great team down at down at his company. And so when they're talking to people, they're like, Oh, listen to our podcast.

It's their own. And it's it's our company podcast. Nick. Nick's the man, in front of the camera, but they're owning it. That's a massive benefit, and if your team are listening to it, they're getting bought into it. It's part of who you are, part of your team [00:17:00] culture.

People are excited by it. I think that's massive, and, but it's unquantifiable. Like you can't stand before people and go, we should do a podcast. Why? Your team are going to love it. Yeah. Maybe you could. But it's it's not a big team. It's not like 30, 000 people working for the company and sort of team radio would make sense.

Yeah. This is much more, I don't know how big Nick's team is actually 15, 20 people, I'm guessing. But if you've got that sort of small SME. It's still is something if you're doing it in such a way that everyone's involved, people are proud of the podcast and what's going on, I thought was great.

So it's interesting that was the first place he went to because I never would have thought of that. It was a big deal. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: And I wonder if that was something that just happened on its own rather than him.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah,

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah,

Matt Edmundson: I don't want to put words in Nick's mouth, but I would imagine when Nick started doing that podcast, or actually when Nick took over that podcast I can't imagine Nick wrote down on a piece of paper doing this will be good because staff will love it.

Yeah. That's just one [00:18:00] of those sort of happy accidents that sort of has happened along the way. And this is what I mean, you do get a lot of those with podcasts and I never would have wrote that down. Yeah. You write things down I will get new clients, yeah, the quantifiable. Yeah, you talked about a client, didn't you, listening in and those kind of things.

But all these extra sort of nuances. Yeah. Make all the massive difference. Like I was saying before we started the conversation with Nick, the fact that Nick and I've got to know each other and he just happened to be in Liverpool, went out for a pizza, had a great time just chatting away. So become friends with Nick, that's an unquantifiable benefit to podcasting.

Do you know what I mean? It's one of those things that you like never would have, why, Matt, why are you going to start the eCommerce podcast? What else I can become mates with Nick Tremont? Do you know what I mean? It wasn't on my list. Sorry, Nick, it just wasn't. No offense and I dare say I wasn't on his list, but it's just one of those things that's happened.

And I really liked that and I think that's awesome. And I think like I say, there are just so many of them. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: I think what's interesting is that. An unquantifiable benefit. Yeah, it doesn't, it won't add to the bottom line. There's [00:19:00] no immediate financial gain from it.

But I do think that it's interesting that, like what you're talking about, enhancing the company culture, the people are behind it. You can, the thought leadership, you're establishing yourself as a leader in that area. The content that you're creating, like what you're offering to your listeners, all of that eventually will add to the bottom line.

It just takes a lot longer to get there.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it does. And you, and the trouble is, again, with any company, isn't it. There's so many things that contribute to your sales, to your turnover, that you just have no idea about, right? Even in the world of digital, which we work in, even in the world of eCommerce, where you can attribute a lot of things.

It's not possible to attribute everything that contributes to your turnover. It's the same with podcasting. We had on the eCommerce podcast, a chap called Neil Hoynes, who's [00:20:00] the chief strategist at Google. The man is just involved in all the data at Google and he was a really interesting guy.

He came onto the eCommerce podcast and I remember him telling a story of how. They tracked the, this one woman who bought a pair of, I think it was a pair of shoes. She bought a pair of shoes off a website and they tracked all her interactions. There were 236 of them, right? I think that was the number.

It was crazy number. There was email from the company, there was a Facebook page, there was a Facebook ad, there was an Instagram ad, there was another email, there was going to the website again and checking this out and reading this blog post and maybe a friend talking about it.

There were just all these different things. And Neil asked this really interesting question when he was talking about this. He said, At what point did that lady decide to buy? Because you just don't know the answer. She would not know the answer. So how do you attribute that sale? Do you say [00:21:00] this sale came about as a result of a really clever Facebook ad strategy or this sale came about because of that Instagram post.

You just, you don't know what you can say is all of that collectively together resulted in that sale. And I think it's in digital terms, we've now started to use this phrase

Sadaf Beynon: Blended ROAS,

Matt Edmundson: yeah, the blended return on ad spend. In other words, it's very hard now to attribute to the penny where everything goes.

So you look at things as a whole as well. And I think with podcasting, it's just one of those things. There are so many things which contribute to how well you do as a business. So many things contribute to how well you do with your podcast, but you just, you can't attribute it all the time. You can say, I had that one.

I can say to you that I had a conversation with that person there and that resulted in that much business. That's quantifiable. All the other stuff it becomes quite. Quite difficult.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, it's like even with our eCommerce podcast, we've been going for what, five years with that one? Something like that.

Yeah, I think forever it seems. Yeah. And it's it's only when you're looking back that you see the benefits of the [00:22:00] consistency for one, like all these other things that we were doing, which we didn't realize at the time. Yeah. But looking back you see it more clearly. You figure it out, don't you?

Matt Edmundson: It's like the framework that we use now and we talk to people about and the concepts and the ideas. We didn't start off with that. No. That was all stuff we discovered along the way, wasn't it? And you're like, okay, this, if I'd have known that at the start, that would have been really helpful.

Nick Trueman: Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: And so we were chatting, when was it, last week, we were chatting about eCommerce Podcast and actually, do we need to make some big changes in that show? Understanding where business now needs to go. And so you there's some really. Yeah, we didn't know it at the start, but you do, you're right.

You you look back and go, man, we've got here by hook or bike road. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of pivots. , which is a very trendy word that really winds me up. We've pivoted a lot. Pivots. Yeah. We pivot. Did you pivot? I pivoted . Like

Sadaf Beynon: that friend episode. .

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Pivoted. We just pivoted . So we, yeah.

Lots of changes along the way, and you're right. But you look at it and go, oh man. That's been great. That's been great. That's been great, but [00:23:00] totally would never have set out with those ideas in mind. Yeah, just would never have happened. But and that's part of the reason why we're doing this because we love it.

This is great. There's so much joy in that, right? It's infectious.

Sadaf Beynon: It is.

Matt Edmundson: So is Nick, he's infectious and so is Sadaf with a cold. Don't get near them. They're both really infectious people. Brilliant. Anything else out of that? I'm just trying to read my notes without my glasses, which is never easy.

Do you think, because he mentioned that people behave

differently when the camera starts rolling. Do you think that's true? Yeah. Why do you think that?

Sadaf Beynon: I think in their head, they now know that they're, this is going to go out to the public or whoever or wherever and so yeah,

Matt Edmundson: I think it's right. I think it's a really astute insight from Nick there that actually people do behave slightly differently, talk slightly [00:24:00] differently

Sadaf Beynon: and also as a producer of a lot of your podcasts, Matt.

Matt Edmundson: There's two versions of Matt. I

Sadaf Beynon: know where to top and tail it.

Matt Edmundson: If only you could do that in real life we're around the table and we're just having a meeting about something, you go Matt, this first 15 minutes is a waste of time. And we just skip through to 18 minutes basically. Just pretend the cameras are rolling, like you've just got to deliver some insane value straight away.

Sadaf Beynon: Skip intro.

Matt Edmundson: I think that's why I think people behave differently is because most of the guests that come on to the show, or if I've been a guest on other people's show, the thing that I'm constantly thinking is I want to get to value straight away. I want people to get something out of this show and I want to be able to deliver that.

It's a bit like, if you ever read, it's a bit of an obtuse sort of analogy, but if you ever read Like a novel, [00:25:00] like a Jack Reacher, I'm a big Jack Reacher novel fan, right? So you read the dialogue and then you're following it along. You're getting sucked in. But if people actually talk like that, it would be the weirdest conversation in the world.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And you, like when you're watching a TV show, the amount of people that hang up phones without saying bye, they just hang it up. You're like, that's rude.

Sadaf Beynon: And

Matt Edmundson: But it makes sense in that context. And I think podcasting is a lot like that. You talk about stuff that makes sense in the context of that show, because everyone wants to deliver value, which actually I think makes everybody much more vulnerable, but that's another story.

And so you talk about stuff, if you talk like that down at the pub with your mates, they'd look at you and go, what's wrong with you?

Do you know what

I mean? It's just slow down, dude. We've got all night. We don't have to get to the heart of this in 20 minutes, especially if you're guys. I don't know.

It's just I don't know how to respond to this. So I think it's one of those things where I think people do talk differently and behave differently on podcasts. I do think it's a really [00:26:00] good thing. And I think it's an interesting thing.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. I like what you said about, you just want to get to the heart of it.

Is you want to deliver value right away. Rather than just waffling on, which I feel like I'm doing right now. So I've

got

Matt Edmundson: to get into that mindset. And then finally, the other thing that Nick said, which are we, which is what we were talking about when the, when he just flipped it and we're like, Oh, we're really sorry.

Is this idea that when you talk to a guest, you have this sort of preamble before you hit the record button, just to put people at ease, like, where are you from? How's it going? Those kinds of things. And, and he said that he refers quite a lot back to that initial conversation to put people at

Sadaf Beynon: ease.

Matt Edmundson: And I, I do that which I probably should attribute the credit to Nick for as much as it pains me. But as I have started to do that as a result of that conversation. And actually it is really interesting because what it does, my observation here is it gives permission. For the guest to talk about normal [00:27:00] things.

Yeah. So I think people do behave and talk differently, but actually as the host, giving the guest permission to talk about normal things, i. e. the stuff that we talked about beforehand. Yeah. Like I will often say to people like, Oh, you're a fan of such and such, or you're what's the, we were talking about the weather or we're talking about this or that.

And it just, it's disarming because it's like I get to talk about normal stuff. I don't. Yeah. I don't have to be on point the whole time. You want to talk about something random, like the weather and it just puts people at ease, plus we're British. We always talk about it.

Sadaf Beynon: Yes, that is true. But I think it also, like you're saying, I don't know if this is the right word, but it humanizes them a bit more too, because you get some insight into, you Them as a person.

Yeah, exactly.

Matt Edmundson: Certainly the listener does. Yeah. Because obviously I've already had that conversation, but it brings that extra dynamic. So yeah, a very good episode, Mr. Nick. So thank you for that. Anything else from you? No. What's coming up next week?

Sadaf Beynon: Next week is James Gerd.

Matt Edmundson: You said that so confidently [00:28:00] as well.

Sadaf Beynon: I knew this question was coming.

Matt Edmundson: So do join us next week for James. If it's say first time, as if you haven't done so already, make sure you like and subscribe to the show. And if you're so inclined, head over to the website podjunction. com. Put in your name and email address because we'll send you a newsletter every time the podcast goes live.

But other than that's it from me. That's it from Sadaf. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world, and we will see you next time.

Sadaf Beynon: And that brings us to the end of today's episode at Podjunction, where business meets podcasting. If you enjoyed the insights from today and wish to hear the full conversation with today's special guest, don't forget to visit thepodjunction. com where you'll find more information about how you can join today.

Whether you listen while on the go or in a quiet moment, thank you for letting us be a part of your day. Remember, every episode is a chance to gain insights and to transform your business [00:29:00] with podcasting. So keep tuning in, keep learning, and until next time, happy podcasting.