Can Podcasting Really Replace Traditional Marketing? | Brett Curry

Brett Curry: [00:00:00] There's been multiple times when I've thought, is this really worth it? And I went to a trade show and like five people stopped me at the trade show and they said, Hey, I just want you to know I love your podcast. And I'm like, dang, this is awesome. Right? So I gotta keep it going.

Sadaf Beynon: Welcome back to the Podjunction podcast, the show where business leaders share how they use podcasting to grow, connect, and build their brands. I have the pleasure of speaking with Brett Curry. Brett is the CEO and co-founder of OMG Commerce, a powerhouse agency that helps e-commerce brands scale through strategic Google, YouTube, and Amazon advertising. is also the host of the eCommerce Evolution podcast, where he gets into the latest trends, strategies, and stories from top e-commerce entrepreneurs and marketers. Brett, welcome to the show.

Brett Curry: Thanks for having me. Really excited to be here on a podcast about podcast. I don't think anything could be more meta than that, but I love this topic and so I'm excited to to dive in.[00:01:00]

Sadaf Beynon: awesome. Thank you. Well, Brett, you know what, um, you've built a powerhouse agency helping brands grow through strategic marketing, which is totally awesome. But here's what I'm curious about. Running an agency is already a full-time job, so why add a podcast to the mix?

Brett Curry: Yeah, so maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment. You know, I have a lot of kids at home as well, so like if things are not feeling chaotic enough, I just need to throw something else into the mix. Uh, but, but in all seriousness, uh, one, I do enjoy doing it. So that, that's the first thing I wanna get on the table.

But I remember hearing years ago. That from, from a, a marketing pro that I really admire. Uh, he said that, hey, every company should also view themselves as Aurion Media Company. So you are in the business of providing a service or a widget or whatever. Yes, of course. But you're also Aurion Media company.

Uh, meaning, you know, we need to constantly attract the attention, keep the attention of our core audience. [00:02:00] And so how can you. Publish great content and be Aurion Media Company as well, and so.

I love talking. I don't mind being on camera. I love speaking on stages and I, I love podcasts. I love to consume podcasts.

Um, I'm generally listening to podcasts when I drive rather than music. What do I do? You like to rock out every now and then un unplug a little bit. Um, so a podcast was a natural fit for me, and so use it to grow the business, to grow the agency, but but also the lots of other benefits to, to hosting a podcast.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, that's that. That's cool. I love that you say that you enjoy it. It's a natural fit. 'cause I think that's where you get the longevity in it,

Brett Curry: Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: so what, what came first then, or I guess maybe how soon after you started the business did podcasting come in? I'm not sure of your story actually.

Brett Curry: Yeah, that's a great question. So, uh, and speaking of longevity, so eCommerce Evolution, we're over 300 episodes now. Started in, in 2017. So it's been [00:03:00] just, you know, pretty, pretty steady. I've gone through periods where I'm just a couple episodes a month and sometimes where I'm three episodes a month, sometimes I'm remember every week and stuff.

So, uh, but consistently been publishing. Since 2017 actually started my first podcast with a partner agency, I believe it was like 2014 or something. I was with a development agency that we, uh, we partnered with 'em. They, they built Magento websites. We did marketing and so we joined forces and then we did a podcast together.

So, so that was really early days. We actually did that. On Google Hangouts way back in the day and then, and then publish them. And so, uh, yeah. But, but the agency came first. I mean, I, I, I love marketing and love marketing services. I always tell people. I'm not a product guy. Like I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not in the shower dreaming of the next invention, or how can I come up with something that's gonna land me on Shark Tank to, you know, pitch to the Sharks.

But if someone [00:04:00] else does that and they've got a great product or a great supplement or something like that, uh, I am filled with all kinds of ideas on how to grow that and scale that. And so marketing services agency life was, was right for me. So that came first. Podcast came second.

Sadaf Beynon: Google Hangouts. I remember that.

Brett Curry: Yeah. Yeah, that was back in the day for sure. So

Sadaf Beynon: Well, that's very cool that you did it then as well, like over that. So how has your podcast then helped you with your

Brett Curry: yeah, I. Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. So, I mean, the, the easy, obvious answer is we do attract clients through the podcast. So I constantly try to deliver value, what's new, what's next in e-commerce, how can you grow your e-commerce business through new traffic sources, conversion rate, optimization, retention, marketing, things like that.

I interview great brands, so, uh, attracting clients, that's the easy, obvious, no-brainer type of thing. Right? And actually, we just a couple months ago closed a really big [00:05:00] client. And they're like, Hey, been listening to the podcast forever, you know, finally made sense to, to reach out, but feel like I know you, you know, now that you, I've been listening to the podcast for so long, and so that's the, the easy obvious one.

Uh, but then there's all kinds of related benefits. So, you know, I use it as a, as a tool to build relationships as well, so. I have other influencers, other leaders in the space on the podcast, and one, it's a great way to get to know people and, and then two, some of those, you know, turn into referral partners or, or joint venture partners, or we do things together after the podcast.

And so it's more than just client attraction. It's, Hey, as I interview this thought leader. May we become friends,

uh, may we just do stuff, um, ongoing and, and in fact, you know, Matt Edmundson, who I, I know you work with, we got introed through a mutual friend, but then we did a couple podcasts together and we're like, Hey, this guy's pretty cool.

Hey, that guy's pretty cool. And so we, we, we end up now, uh, uh, chatting, uh, fairly frequently. And so build [00:06:00] friendships, build partnerships, and you know, we're, we're still driven a lot by referrals as an agency. So these, these partner relationships that I build up through the podcast. They lead to referrals.

Sometimes that's, that's kind of unpredictable or it is unpredictable. It just happens when it happens, but it's still a benefit. It's still an another thing to kinda layer onto the agency. And so there there's many other benefits that I can kind of unpack. I've got several that I think are worth mentioning, but I'll, I'll pause there to see if you have any, uh, thing to add or, or ask.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. No, I, I totally agree. There are so many benefits, and I'd love for you to get into them some more, but just a quick question before you do that. You said that, um, for you, the easiest and the most obvious thing was attracting clients. And then, um, you said that, you know, often you'll, you'll have people who've been listening to the podcasts that be like, yeah, you know, I've been listening to you for ages. Sign me up kind of thing. Actually, you didn't

Brett Curry: Yep.

Sadaf Beynon: many words, but you know, just reading between the lines. Um,

Brett Curry: Yep.

Sadaf Beynon: so how is it you do that?

Brett Curry: Yeah, so I, I think it's a couple things. One, you know, try to deliver value on the [00:07:00] podcast. Uh, and, and also what I try to do is, is always share my experiences, right? So we're talking about conversion rate optimization. We're talking about opening new traffic sources for an e-com brand. I'm going to share stories.

I'm going to share examples of what I. I've done what we've done as an agency, who we've helped, things like that. And so as you start telling these stories and, and you're, you're we're sharing it from an example of, Hey, here's what we did for Arctic coolers, or here's what we did for native deodorant.

Uh, the listener gets benefit from that.

They, they can then take that and run with it, but they start thinking, I. Wait a minute. If, if they did that for native and they, they grew, you know, from a hundred million to a billion over six years or whatever, maybe I should talk to them about doing that for, for my business. And so it's definitely more of a soft sell, more of a subtle thing.

You know, most people that listen never reach out and that's fine.

Um, it's more so it's more of a, a soft sell. But, uh, as I'm being helpful, I'm always trying to weave in stories, weave in case studies, weave in real world examples of what we've. Done because it serves a dual purpose. It's helpful, [00:08:00] but it also, uh, points people to the agency.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. And then do you use those episodes that you create with all these case studies and stories, and do you dice them up and put 'em out in newsletters or

Brett Curry: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. And that, and that's one of the, the other benefits, uh, of doing a podcast is one, if you are consistent with it, if it's something you, you enjoy, I, I prefer to podcast over writing and I do both. I like to, I, I do write as well, but I prefer podcasting. It keeps me in a constant rhythm of content creation.

And so one thing that's really important for people to note is if you run a podcast, the people that listen to your podcast or watch your podcast on YouTube. That's only part of the, the reach, right? I can think of a few people, uh, whose content I consume. Uh, Andrew Huberman is one. I love him. He is in the health space.

Joe Rogan, like pops up in my feed all the time on Instagram or other places. I don't really listen to either of their shows, but I do consume a little [00:09:00] one minute or two minute sound bites as they pop up in my feed. And so the same can happen for you. So maybe you've got people that are, that are in your market, that are your ideal client, your ideal customer.

They're not consuming the whole podcast. But now that you're creating it, you can slice and dice that a hundred different ways or, you know, call, call it 10 pieces of content per episode. Maybe one of those is gonna resonate with your audience. And now there's another connection point. And so, uh, I, I've kind of gone.

I've kind of focused on LinkedIn as the additional, uh, channel for me in addition to podcasting. But the podcast clips, the podcast lessons, the things that we discuss in the podcast. I then turn that into multiple LinkedIn posts and then you can, you know, double, triple, quadruple 10 x you know, your, your reach with that content when you share it across those, those additional channels.

Sadaf Beynon: Wow. I really like that, especially what you said about the social media reels and things. 'cause you, you know,

Brett Curry: Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: they're just time consuming to create,[00:10:00]

Brett Curry: Yeah, they are. They are.

Sadaf Beynon: you're saying. Yeah.

Brett Curry: Yeah, you're already sitting down to have this conversation. There's going to be, you know, if you're recording for 30 minutes, you know you're gonna have five or six, probably little clips that you can use. You record for an hour, maybe you have 10. Uh, but some of those are gonna be gold and some of those are really gonna resonate with, with somebody.

And, and what's interesting to me is, uh, I don't know if you've been this way, uh, with your own podcast, but. There's been multiple times when I've thought, is this really worth it? Like to sh should I keep going because it is a bit of a grind. I enjoy it. I like this part. I love talking to you, delivering value.

I love that. But there's other, you know, then, then you gotta review all the clips and someone's gotta post them and you gotta edit it and gotta schedule things. And if I'm, you know, fighting fires in the agency and they gotta set aside a couple hours to record, there's always a reason not to do it. And so the times though that I've been, uh, almost ready to quit.

I remember one time I was really, really, really ready to quit. And I went to a trade show and like five people stopped me at the trade show and they said, Hey, I just want you to know I love your podcast. And I'm like, dang, [00:11:00] this is awesome. Right? So I gotta keep it going. So, so that can be a reminder, like sometimes you feel like, man, am I, who am I even speaking to?

Um, but then also you get interactions on socials and you're like, okay, alright, these, these little clips, even if it's a one minute bite or a two minute bite from this podcast, it's delivering value to people. I should, I should keep this going. That type of thing.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Cool. do you have any stories about someone who's come to you after having listened to a podcast or many podcasts?

Brett Curry: Yeah, so we actually, we have a, um, a female clothing line, um, but I didn't get permission to, to share the brand, so I won't. But, um, great clients, absolutely stunning client. They're, they're one of the biggest in their space. Um, and now they, they started with one service with us. Now that I think they've got three or four, maybe about to add the fifth I.

And, uh, yeah, came from the podcast. The guy's like, Hey, been listening forever. Love your style. Love what you do. And so let's, let's chat. So that happened. Um, I was at a trade show in Fort Lauderdale recently. Somebody stopped me and said, Hey man, lemme tell you. Love the pod. And so it's like, I didn't know [00:12:00] this guy.

Um, so yeah, it was, it was really cool. And, and so I think, you know, all of those things, if we think about whatever we're trying to do, we're trying to, to, you know, we've got a service-based business or we've got, we're selling widgets or whatever. Anything we can do to build trust, uh, goes a long, long way.

Uh, I, I once heard someone say that marketing is really a transfer of trust. I have complete trust in my service and my product. Whatever the case is, I need to transfer that trust to my ideal customer. That's really marketing and podcasts are a great way to facilitate that and, and to share trust. And, and one other thing I'll, I'll kind of mention, I heard this from Alex Hormo first, he said, Hey, you, you've got, you're sharing content.

And let's say you get 300, you get a reach of 300 people, right? You may look at that and you're like, well, that's really frustrating. You know, I'm not getting millions of views. I'm not getting thousands of likes. I'm not getting a hundred people sharing my content.

But it's like, think about that in terms of a room.

If you're on stage speaking to 300 people. That's a [00:13:00] big deal, right? So, so even small reach podcasts, especially if you're in the service based business, and I think we're in the top one or 2%, uh, of podcast listeners, I'm not exactly sure, but, uh, we, we got a top 2% notice not too long ago. Um, but even if it's small, it's like, hey, this, for me to replicate this by like, speaking at events or something, you know, even a few hundred people is a, a significant audience if it's the right people.

So I think that's important to note as well.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. Brett, every podcast comes with its own learning curve too. And I know it's been a while, and I know you're great at what you do, but can you remember, if you think back, some of the biggest challenges you faced when you first started eCommerce Evolution

Brett Curry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so just a quick, funny side note. The first, the first podcast I did, I think this is still on YouTube and it's probably pretty embarrassing if it is, but, uh, the, the company we partnered with was called Classy Llama. There's, they still exists. I'm still friends with the CEO. He is awesome guy.

Shout out to Kurt Theobald. Um, [00:14:00] but it was called the Llama Commerce Show. And so we had a cool logo with a llama and a microphone. And I was really into like delivering value. My co-host Kurt, was more into just having fun and most of the time it worked like we had, we had good synergy, good chemistry.

There's a couple episodes that like, totally, it was like that was so awkward. Uh, but yeah, I think there was just a few times where we didn't think through enough, like what questions are we gonna ask? How is this going to flow? I've always been pretty good on my feed and, you know, done improv or so like, not, not, not again comedy clubs, but, but improv, like in speech class and stuff like that, always, always was pretty fast on my feet.

Um, so I think that the mo, most of the mistakes I made were just not preparing enough, but it's also fine. One, if your podcast isn't perfect, I think that's ideal, right? You have little, little blips in the middle that just show you're human or you got a few ums or uhs. I think that's totally fine. If you say something completely off the [00:15:00] rail or stumble, you can always edit that out, right?

But, um, I think showing your humanity is important. But I think most of the mistakes were me not really preparing enough in terms of questions I was gonna ask or thinking through, okay, this is the topic, this is the guest. What are the most pressing and important things that the audience wants to hear that, uh, I need to pull out of this conversation?

So that, that's probably the biggest thing. Another thing that I think is really important. Is, you know, sometimes you, you, you get someone on who's a guest who's used to public speaking or they've been onto the podcast and they're, they're just a great interview. Sometimes you get people on a podcast who've never been on before and they ramble and they meander and they tell stories that are not relevant.

And so understanding when do I. Cut someone off politely and redirect the conversation. Because if you think about this, you're almost like a radio host, right? Like call, call in, radio show host, man, if I'm listening to a radio show and a caller, just drones, on and on, I'm begging for the host to, to cut that thing [00:16:00] short or, or to redirect it.

As hosts we, we've gotta do that too. And

then on occasionally, this doesn't happen a whole lot, but I've had to look at a recording and say, that wasn't good enough, right? Like that. We just gotta scrap that and either do it again or just. You know, call it, chalk it up to learning experience and not, and not publish that.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Um, on that hamin, like, what do you do in that case? Do you go back to them? Like, if you're not gonna use the episode,

Brett Curry: Yep, yep.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's only happened a few times. And so, so generally then what I try to do is say, Hey, here's what I'm thinking with this episode. Um, and this was on me, you know, but I. I think there's some really good clips in this show that I can share on socials, but I don't think it's a full episode.

And, and so I've kind of, I've kind of presented it that way to a couple of guests and, you know, it's not necessarily welcome news, but I think people understand. I think the thing you've gotta keep in mind though is your responsibility isn't first and foremost to your guest. Your responsibility, first [00:17:00] and foremost to your audience.

Um, guests you wanna take care of as well. It's their time. You wanna respect that. You wanna honor that. But on occasion, it's not really gonna be good enough. We're not gonna work if you're doing an interview podcast type of thing.

Um, and so, so that, that's the way I've approached it. And then there's been a couple times.

One was even like a guy that I'm, I'm good friends with. I was like, Hey, you know, I think, I don't know that that's really a full episode. Let's, here's what I'm gonna do though. I wanna chop this up into a couple clips. I'll share 'em with you. I'll share 'em on the socials. I think we'll still get benefit out of it.

You'll still get benefit out of it, that type of thing. And so that, that's worked pretty well. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: Wow. And they, and they accept that, I guess if you're still using it in some, in some form.

Brett Curry: So using it in some form or fashion. I'm trying to think. There's maybe been a couple times when I haven't used an episode at all, but that's been rare. And so I think really what I've learned though is like just be selective about who I have on the podcast, right? You used to, I'd have people recommend, or, Hey, this person says that that person should be on the podcast.

Okay. Uh, and then I realized, yeah, that was a bad idea. So, so now I'm very [00:18:00] selective about. Who's on the pod because I, I found there are really two things that drive individual episode engagement. The topic, number one, obviously it's important, right? So, so in my world, in the eCommerce world, like anything about tariffs or shipping or cost cutting, like that's, I.

Crazy popular right now. You know, six months ago it wouldn't have been as popular. Um, something like that is popular. So, so topic is important. And then number two, it's guest. So who is the guest? If it's a big name guest, like I got to interview, uh, Dean Brennan from Heart and Soil. They're a kind of a, a, you know, rising star e-commerce brand.

Uh, interviewed Jimmy Sanson from the normal brand, amazing apparel brand in the, in the D two C space. Sean Frank from The Ridge. He's now host of the Operators podcast. So you get a big guest on and people are like, okay, I wanna, I want to hear, I wanna hear this one. So, so topic and guest, really important.

So, so be selective about that. I would rather someone do fewer episodes with great guests and timely topics than [00:19:00] just cranking out episodes just because, yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: of it. Yeah, no, that's good. You said, um, early on, um, in this question about, um, preparedness and making sure the flow worked, and you also said you were, um, co-host with Kurt. Was that part of , the, lack of preparedness when you've got a co-host.

Brett Curry: Yes. Uh, well, partially. So I think with, with the co-host, there's always just a little more coordination because then it's like, okay, I need to focus. I need to think about the topic, think about questions. I need to share those questions with the co-host, we maybe need to go back and forth and collaborate a little bit.

You know, we're both super busy. He was running the company, I was running my company, plus the marketing department there. So we, we just mostly winged it. And most of the time, like, because of our personalities, it worked and it was fun. But, but we, we would've benefited from a little more, a little more prep.

And so. Another thing I like to think about as I'm forming questions or think about the flow of a podcast

is say, what's one burning question or burning topic that I can share right outta the gate, right? [00:20:00] So someone's listening and immediately we're into it and delivering value. Then there's always something that I'm trying to tease early on, like, Hey, we're gonna get to this.

We're gonna talk about this point. We're, we're gonna break down this famous ad that you had as a brand. We're gonna talk about how you launched this product, which has been super cool. Or like, I interviewed the guy from MIS and Maine and he was on the Tim Ferris podcast, and that like exploded his business

like, I don't know, 20 Xs, but I can't remember the exact number, but.

Uh, so I started talking about the brand, but I, I teased that, hey, we're gonna get into the Tim Ferris story. So you're kind of, you're kinda, um, teasing that out and then, and then, and then visiting it later. Uh, in TV they call or movies and stuff, they call it opening and closing loops, right? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna deliver value, but then I'm gonna open a loop that I'm gonna close later to kind of keep people sticking around.

And so, so some of those things are really important to try to do.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Brett, thank you so much. There's so much insight that you've shared with us and tips and all. Thank you.

Where do you see, um, your podcast going next?

Brett Curry: Yeah, it's a great question. So it something we talk about, uh, [00:21:00] internally from time to time. Uh, you know, we wanna lean into YouTube a little bit more as an agency. We're, we're very focused on YouTube ads, and that's something that we're, we're really good at for D two C brands. But we're, we're thinking, hey, let's, let's, uh, lean into YouTube a little bit more on the content side.

We're sharing shorts and sharing the episodes, and that's going fine, but I think there's more we can do there. Um, uh, what's. Kind of next what we're kind of sketching out and, and trying to design now is more mini series, uh, on the podcast. So where we take four episodes and say, Hey, this is going to be.

All about CRO four episodes, right? Then you can promote that as an event on socials, and you have a few key guests. They promote it as well, where it's like, Hey, tune into these four episodes

about conversion rate optimization, or tune into these four episodes about how to, you know, fix your p and l or whatever.

And so, so that, that's what we're working on. I think that's, that's something that's coming next. And then, uh, always working on, on reaching out to, to big brands, big successful D two C brands [00:22:00] that.

That have a great story, that want to be on the pod, and, and so that, like I said, guest really drives listenership and really just makes for great content.

And so, uh, also focusing on, on continuing to attract great brands.

Sadaf Beynon: Awesome. I'm, I'm interested to see what it would look like on, you know, as you said, you're leaning more into YouTube. I'm keen to see what that will look like.

Brett Curry: Yeah. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: Brett, or is that longer?

Brett Curry: Yeah, I mean, I think it's something we can do more of this year. Um, and we're gonna continue sharing short, you know, our shorts in the podcast and those range from, you know, four or 500 views each to, sometimes one will get six or 7,000 views, you know, for, for a a, a single short. So we'll continue to do that.

Uh, but I also think in, in talking to a couple other big YouTubers, you know, getting. Like 10 minute clips, five minute clips that are focused on a specific topic. Those can do really well on YouTube as well. So it's something we're exploring this year. So probably, you know, later in the year, but, but [00:23:00] ideally a 2025 or a 2026 initiative, the the series podcast one execute on this year for sure.

So.

Sadaf Beynon: Cool. Very cool. Brett, I love that clear that podcasting has become a key part of how you share insights and connect with

Brett Curry: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know what I would do if I didn't podcast. Now I kind, it kind of feels just part of, of what I do.

Sadaf Beynon: No, that's awesome. Brett, this has been such fun digging into how you use podcasting to grow your business. But before we go, where can people connect with you? Learn more about OMG Commerce and of course, tune into eCommerce Evolution podcast.

Brett Curry: Great. Yeah, so easiest way is omgcommerce.com. You can check services, you view case studies, kind of see what we're up to and what we're doing. So omgcommerce.com. Uh, LinkedIn for me. So, uh, I'm Brett Curry, uh, on LinkedIn, um, all and then eCommerce Evolution Podcast. Anywhere you like to listen to podcasts, whether that's YouTube or Spotify or, or good old fashioned podcast app [00:24:00] on Apple, or whatever the case may be.

But post two to three times a, a month on, uh, on all of those platforms for eCommerce Evolution. So check that out as well.

Sadaf Beynon: Awesome. Thank you so much. And for those tuning in, you'll find all the links and details in the description. And if you're listening and you are curious about using podcasting as a, as a strategic tool for your own business growth, I hope this episode has inspired you to build credibility, trust, and connection with your audience. As always, thanks for listening and bye from Brett and from me, and I'll see you next time.